Comments on: A Question On Addressing Climate Change http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/ Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:48:10 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Declan http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164909 Declan Fri, 27 Nov 2009 03:57:43 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164909 "Human kind has solved virtually every other problem that it has faced in the last couple of hundred years with technology" Well, the two closest problems to climate change that I can think of, offhand, are acid rain and the hole in the ozone layer. We haven't solved either of those problems yet entirely, but to the extent we have made progress it's been via government intervention of the sort being pursued in Copenhagen.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164909','Declan'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164909','Declan','\"Human kind has solved virtually every other problem that it has faced in the last couple of hundred years with technology\"\r\n\r\nWell, the two closest problems to climate change that I can think of, offhand, are acid rain and the hole in the ozone layer. We haven\'t solved either of those problems yet entirely, but to the extent we have made progress it\'s been via government intervention of the sort being pursued in Copenhagen.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> “Human kind has solved virtually every other problem that it has faced in the last couple of hundred years with technology”

Well, the two closest problems to climate change that I can think of, offhand, are acid rain and the hole in the ozone layer. We haven’t solved either of those problems yet entirely, but to the extent we have made progress it’s been via government intervention of the sort being pursued in Copenhagen.

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]]> By: Holly Stick http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164889 Holly Stick Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:44:50 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164889 Here's an explanation of why global warming is probably not just natural variability. http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/FAQ/wg1_faq-9.2.html and about it being human-caused http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/FAQ/wg1_faq-7.1.html The sun cannot be the major factor in the past 40 years or so because while solar radiance has gone down at times, global temperatures did not drop correspondingly.: http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164889','Holly Stick'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164889','Holly Stick','Here\'s an explanation of why global warming is probably not just natural variability.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu\/wg1\/FAQ\/wg1_faq-9.2.html\r\n\r\nand about it being human-caused\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu\/wg1\/FAQ\/wg1_faq-7.1.html\r\n\r\nThe sun cannot be the major factor in the past 40 years or so because while solar radiance has gone down at times, global temperatures did not drop correspondingly.:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.skepticalscience.com\/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Here’s an explanation of why global warming is probably not just natural variability.

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/FAQ/wg1_faq-9.2.html

and about it being human-caused

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/FAQ/wg1_faq-7.1.html

The sun cannot be the major factor in the past 40 years or so because while solar radiance has gone down at times, global temperatures did not drop correspondingly.:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm

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]]> By: Holly Stick http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164887 Holly Stick Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:17:26 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164887 Because a scientist who has scientific evidence against AGW is able to publish her/his findings in a peer-reviewed scientific journal; where other scientists can evaluate it based on their own knowledge and experience. For instance, Richard Lindzen: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Richard_S._Lindzen Note his views on smoking and lung cancer. Many of the people who were employed to deny the smoking-cancer link are also employed to deny AGW. http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-deniers-take-tobacco-smoke http://www.desmogblog.com/no-apology-is-owed-dr-s-fred-singer-and-none-will-be-forthcoming http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Hill_%26_Knowlton<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164887','Holly Stick'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164887','Holly Stick','Because a scientist who has scientific evidence against AGW is able to publish her\/his findings in a peer-reviewed scientific journal; where other scientists can evaluate it based on their own knowledge and experience. For instance, Richard Lindzen:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.sourcewatch.org\/index.php\/Richard_S._Lindzen\r\n\r\nNote his views on smoking and lung cancer.\r\n\r\nMany of the people who were employed to deny the smoking-cancer link are also employed to deny AGW.\r\nhttp:\/\/www.desmogblog.com\/climate-deniers-take-tobacco-smoke\r\nhttp:\/\/www.desmogblog.com\/no-apology-is-owed-dr-s-fred-singer-and-none-will-be-forthcoming\r\nhttp:\/\/www.sourcewatch.org\/index.php\/Hill_%26_Knowlton'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Because a scientist who has scientific evidence against AGW is able to publish her/his findings in a peer-reviewed scientific journal; where other scientists can evaluate it based on their own knowledge and experience. For instance, Richard Lindzen:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Richard_S._Lindzen

Note his views on smoking and lung cancer.

Many of the people who were employed to deny the smoking-cancer link are also employed to deny AGW.
http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-deniers-take-tobacco-smoke
http://www.desmogblog.com/no-apology-is-owed-dr-s-fred-singer-and-none-will-be-forthcoming
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Hill_%26_Knowlton

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]]> By: Peter http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164883 Peter Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:23:03 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164883 Thanks. I understand 1, 3 & 4, and even 2 when it is expressed absolutely. But what of the scientist who says "yes, the climate is changing and carbon emissions have an effect, but I don't believe it's the major one. Other factors (e.g. solar) play a greater role." In what way could he/she be said to be ignoring the evidence? Big Tobacco played the "correlation is not causation" card for decades, but was finally defearted when studies comparing smokers and non-smokers became too conclusive to ignore. If the whole world smoked, I'm not sure we wouldn't still be having the debate. With AGW, there is no parallel earth without greenhouse gases to compare to ours, so how can science even theoretically advance on this question given the chaotic complexity of climate<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164883','Peter'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164883','Peter','Thanks. I understand 1, 3 & 4, and even 2 when it is expressed absolutely. But what of the scientist who says \"yes, the climate is changing and carbon emissions have an effect, but I don\'t believe it\'s the major one. Other factors (e.g. solar) play a greater role.\" In what way could he\/she be said to be ignoring the evidence?\r\n\r\nBig Tobacco played the \"correlation is not causation\" card for decades, but was finally defearted when studies comparing smokers and non-smokers became too conclusive to ignore. If the whole world smoked, I\'m not sure we wouldn\'t still be having the debate. With AGW, there is no parallel earth without greenhouse gases to compare to ours, so how can science even theoretically advance on this question given the chaotic complexity of climate'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Thanks. I understand 1, 3 & 4, and even 2 when it is expressed absolutely. But what of the scientist who says “yes, the climate is changing and carbon emissions have an effect, but I don’t believe it’s the major one. Other factors (e.g. solar) play a greater role.” In what way could he/she be said to be ignoring the evidence?

Big Tobacco played the “correlation is not causation” card for decades, but was finally defearted when studies comparing smokers and non-smokers became too conclusive to ignore. If the whole world smoked, I’m not sure we wouldn’t still be having the debate. With AGW, there is no parallel earth without greenhouse gases to compare to ours, so how can science even theoretically advance on this question given the chaotic complexity of climate

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]]> By: Holly Stick http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164865 Holly Stick Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:00:37 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164865 People who argue that the climate is not changing, against the evidence. People who argue that the current climate change is not caused by human activity, against the evidence. (AGW is anthropogenic global warming.) People who say that there has been no global warming since 1998, against the evidence. People who will drag their feet against acceptiing AGW as long as they can, despite all the evidence for it, then turn around and say "Oh well, it's too late to do anything about it now." Notice a trend? There is a mass of evidence that AGW is happening and will continue; people who deny the evidence without having any scientific basis for denying it, are denialists. Here's the latest update by a bunch of climate scientists, showing findings since the last IPCC report: http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.org/<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164865','Holly Stick'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164865','Holly Stick','People who argue that the climate is not changing, against the evidence.\r\nPeople who argue that the current climate change is not caused by human activity, against the evidence. (AGW is anthropogenic global warming.)\r\nPeople who say that there has been no global warming since 1998, against the evidence.\r\nPeople who will drag their feet against acceptiing AGW as long as they can, despite all the evidence for it, then turn around and say \"Oh well, it\'s too late to do anything about it now.\"\r\n\r\nNotice a trend? There is a mass of evidence that AGW is happening and will continue; people who deny the evidence without having any scientific basis for denying it, are denialists.\r\n\r\nHere\'s the latest update by a bunch of climate scientists, showing findings since the last IPCC report: http:\/\/www.copenhagendiagnosis.org\/'); return false;">Quote</a></div> People who argue that the climate is not changing, against the evidence.
People who argue that the current climate change is not caused by human activity, against the evidence. (AGW is anthropogenic global warming.)
People who say that there has been no global warming since 1998, against the evidence.
People who will drag their feet against acceptiing AGW as long as they can, despite all the evidence for it, then turn around and say “Oh well, it’s too late to do anything about it now.”

Notice a trend? There is a mass of evidence that AGW is happening and will continue; people who deny the evidence without having any scientific basis for denying it, are denialists.

Here’s the latest update by a bunch of climate scientists, showing findings since the last IPCC report: http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.org/

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]]> By: Peter http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164843 Peter Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:27:34 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164843 Hey, Holly, serious question. When you use the term "denialist", what exactly do you claim is being denied? I assume anyone who questions warming trends since 1880 and complementary increases in carbon emissions would qualify, but beyond that, what are you referring to?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164843','Peter'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164843','Peter','Hey, Holly, serious question. When you use the term \"denialist\", what exactly do you claim is being denied? I assume anyone who questions warming trends since 1880 and complementary increases in carbon emissions would qualify, but beyond that, what are you referring to?'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Hey, Holly, serious question. When you use the term “denialist”, what exactly do you claim is being denied? I assume anyone who questions warming trends since 1880 and complementary increases in carbon emissions would qualify, but beyond that, what are you referring to?
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]]> By: Holly Stick http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164818 Holly Stick Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:18:15 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164818 Now to push us all over the edge, I call upon OTTERS! http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php Bwahahahahahahah.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164818','Holly Stick'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164818','Holly Stick','Now to push us all over the edge, I call upon OTTERS!\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/eclectech.co.uk\/mindcontrol.php\r\n\r\nBwahahahahahahah.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Now to push us all over the edge, I call upon OTTERS!

http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

Bwahahahahahahah.

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]]> By: balbulican http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164816 balbulican Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:10:18 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164816 Aaarghh! She's invoked a Cat on the Site of the Dawg! The Great Union of Opposites! Ia! Iaaahhh! Shub-Niggurath! The Goat with a Thousand Young.....<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164816','balbulican'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164816','balbulican','Aaarghh! She\'s invoked a Cat on the Site of the Dawg! The Great Union of Opposites! \r\nIa! Iaaahhh! Shub-Niggurath! The Goat with a Thousand Young.....'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Aaarghh! She’s invoked a Cat on the Site of the Dawg! The Great Union of Opposites!
Ia! Iaaahhh! Shub-Niggurath! The Goat with a Thousand Young…..
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]]> By: Holly Stick http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164811 Holly Stick Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:09:22 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164811 Photo of a fascistic denialist: http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/protocols-of-elders-of-climate-science.html<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164811','Holly Stick'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164811','Holly Stick','Photo of a fascistic denialist:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com\/2009\/11\/protocols-of-elders-of-climate-science.html'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Photo of a fascistic denialist:

http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/protocols-of-elders-of-climate-science.html

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]]> By: Peter http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164806 Peter Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:37:51 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164806 Yeah, plus you know how we fascistic denialists are prone to reactionary symbolic protests. If you two keep grossing us out like this, we may start flushing every five minutes even though nobody has gone.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164806','Peter'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164806','Peter','Yeah, plus you know how we fascistic denialists are prone to reactionary symbolic protests. If you two keep grossing us out like this, we may start flushing every five minutes even though nobody has gone.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Yeah, plus you know how we fascistic denialists are prone to reactionary symbolic protests. If you two keep grossing us out like this, we may start flushing every five minutes even though nobody has gone.
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]]> By: balbulican http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164805 balbulican Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:14:14 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164805 Okay, guys...unzip, whip those carbon footprints out on the table, and let's see who's is the smallest. Ahem. This may not be the most productive approach to the issue.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164805','balbulican'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164805','balbulican','Okay, guys...unzip, whip those carbon footprints out on the table, and let\'s see who\'s is the smallest.\r\n\r\nAhem. This may not be the most productive approach to the issue.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Okay, guys…unzip, whip those carbon footprints out on the table, and let’s see who’s is the smallest.

Ahem. This may not be the most productive approach to the issue.

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]]> By: stageleft http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164803 stageleft Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:06:23 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164803 <a href='#comment-164797' rel="nofollow">@Holly Stick</a>: So did I and so did mine - I try avoid wastage as well, I could do better as well, your lifelong footprint is probably smaller than mine (I fly a lot) - but that doesn't really answer the question.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164803','stageleft'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164803','stageleft','<a href=\'#comment-164797\' rel=\"nofollow\">@Holly Stick<\/a>: So did I and so did mine - I try avoid wastage as well, I could do better as well, your lifelong footprint is probably smaller than mine (I fly a lot) - but that doesn\'t really answer the question.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> @Holly Stick: So did I and so did mine – I try avoid wastage as well, I could do better as well, your lifelong footprint is probably smaller than mine (I fly a lot) – but that doesn’t really answer the question.
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]]> By: Holly Stick http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164797 Holly Stick Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:33:22 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164797 stageleft, I grew up on a farm, with parents who both grew up on farms during the Great Depression. I have almost always had a low income, though enough for food, rent, etc. Therefore I naturally avoid wasting electricity, natural gas, gas, food, or anything else. Maybe I could do better, but I'll bet my lifelong footprint is smaller than yours. And yes, I have been flushing less lately.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164797','Holly Stick'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164797','Holly Stick','stageleft, I grew up on a farm, with parents who both grew up on farms during the Great Depression. I have almost always had a low income, though enough for food, rent, etc. Therefore I naturally avoid wasting electricity, natural gas, gas, food, or anything else. Maybe I could do better, but I\'ll bet my lifelong footprint is smaller than yours. And yes, I have been flushing less lately.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> stageleft, I grew up on a farm, with parents who both grew up on farms during the Great Depression. I have almost always had a low income, though enough for food, rent, etc. Therefore I naturally avoid wasting electricity, natural gas, gas, food, or anything else. Maybe I could do better, but I’ll bet my lifelong footprint is smaller than yours. And yes, I have been flushing less lately.
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]]> By: stageleft http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164795 stageleft Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:19:07 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164795 <a href='#comment-164793' rel="nofollow">@Holly Stick</a>: I'm gonna take that to mean that you're pretty well in the same boat as the majority then -- yes?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164795','stageleft'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164795','stageleft','<a href=\'#comment-164793\' rel=\"nofollow\">@Holly Stick<\/a>: I\'m gonna take that to mean that you\'re pretty well in the same boat as the majority then -- yes?'); return false;">Quote</a></div> @Holly Stick: I’m gonna take that to mean that you’re pretty well in the same boat as the majority then — yes?
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]]> By: stageleft http://www.stageleft.info/2009/11/24/a-question-on-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-164794 stageleft Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:14:33 +0000 http://www.stageleft.info/?p=7291#comment-164794 <a href='#comment-164774' rel="nofollow">@JimBobby</a>: There was never any doubt about you JB, after meeting you earlier this year I have no difficulty in saying that your personal level of commitment to this issue is greater than the combined efforts of more than a few of us here.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('164794','stageleft'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('164794','stageleft','<a href=\'#comment-164774\' rel=\"nofollow\">@JimBobby<\/a>: There was never any doubt about you JB, after meeting you earlier this year I have no difficulty in saying that your personal level of commitment to this issue is greater than the combined efforts of more than a few of us here.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> @JimBobby: There was never any doubt about you JB, after meeting you earlier this year I have no difficulty in saying that your personal level of commitment to this issue is greater than the combined efforts of more than a few of us here.
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