Originally Posted By Peter : The fact that there are always some cranky rationalist heathens like SL and sooey …….

— so we don’t get to get in on the love, family values and chocolate gig?

The Pagans and Buddhists among us might take exception to that idea.

Originally Posted By Peter But I think a sense of submissive reverance and the urge to celebrate it in community are, and I think they may also be more the source of morality that anything in scripture.

I reckon we’re pretty much singin’ from the same hymnal except I get a sense you see religion in a more positive light than I do.

Since I seen so many of the bad sides of religion, I’ve rejected it and don’t feel inhuman or lacking in spirituality. I get my dose of submissive reverence when I go out in a snowstorm or look up at a starry sky or experience the solitude of an old growth forest. I can get my fill of community celebration when I’m out in the park with my neighbours or goin’ to a concert of local music or spoutin’ off at a town hall meeting or raising awareness/money for a good cause.

I like puppies and chocolate and family gatherings and huggin’ the grandkids, too… even without fallin’ on my face in front of some Judeo-Christian invention.

JB

Except that it is just as natural to want to express that spirituality with family and community, which is arguably where it all starts. The Vatican didn’t just appear out of nowhere as a power play by a bunch of patriarchs. Even New Age spiritualists like to gather together to bay at the moon or whatever it is they do. It’s a little like eating. Modern rational dietitians may tell us we’d all be better off with six light meals a day consumed in solitude, but somehow we keep on being drawn to that hearty family dinner. Mmmm…dessert! We had them daily as kids and I treasure the memory, although they sure bestowed a lot of political power on Dad.

Anyway, I’m not suggesting organized religion as we know it is “natural” or inevitable, nor is any particular theological belief. But I think a sense of submissive reverance and the urge to celebrate it in community are, and I think they may also be more the source of morality that anything in scripture.

Originally Posted By Peter
My point was not that religion promotes love, family values and chocolate more than secularism, but rather that it (or at least spirituality) is as natural a part of the human condition as they all are.

Whooee! I’ll concede that spirituality is part of the human condition. Religion, however, does not equal spirituality. Religion is the politicization of spirituality. In most cases, religion uses spirituality to bestow political power on individuals and groups. I would argue that religion actually diminishes spirituality and is not an inherent part of the human condition.

JB

My point was not that religion promotes love, family values and chocolate more than secularism, but rather that it (or at least spirituality) is as natural a part of the human condition as they all are. The fact that there are always some cranky rationalist heathens like SL and sooey and bitter old ladies like Aunt Bertha who spent her life trying to deny kids chocolate is just a timeless sideshow.

I think I’ll throw a wrench in his assumptions by being both socialist and godful now.

Politicians pander for votes and some think if they can sway 40% of the voters with some regressive-repressive-republicanism, it’s good panderin’.

JB

Originally Posted By stageleftAccording to a segment on CNN the other night these sorts of fundamentalist loonies comprise 20% of the American population – America may becoming less Christian and less religious but I doubt it’s because any of that 20% is falling off the wagon, and that (IMO) bodes ill for the American Christian belief structure which will end up becoming more and more radicalized if the trend continues.

I agree. It’s that extremist 20% that is taking credit for defining what US Christian values mean. Mainstream Protestants and lapsed Catholics don’t give a damn if a President refers to scriptures when making policy or punctuates speeches with “God Bless”. They are not obsessed with controlling women’s bodies, condemning homosexuality, replacing science with faith, etc. And yet that vocal 20% demand that their State Legislatures and Federal Houses heed their demands and introduce ridiculous propositions and policy shifts.

Not to worry, once the buses are all covered with the ads, it won’t be long until it’s gone for good. Then we can start focussing on getting rid of love and family loyalty. Think of all the pain and confusion we could prevent. I mean, talk about mental impairments!

“Most of the sects and fundamentalist groups originate in protests against an organized religion, which they accuse of corruption, artificiality, over-complexity, hypocrisy.”
(Mary Douglas, British anthropologist / born 1921)

“But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes.”
(John Adams, 2nd US President (1797-1801) / 1735-1826)