What Our Government Is Defending
I thought those defending it might like to see it instead of just read about it.
Via In Gaza, a dead girl pulled out of the rubble of a family home.
I thought those defending it might like to see it instead of just read about it.
Via In Gaza, a dead girl pulled out of the rubble of a family home.
Designed by Gabfire slightly modified by stageleft
And there are dozens, if not hundreds more dead children like her.
No child ever, EVER deserves to die like that – no matter what.
I’m a little concerned about the one-sided outrage here guys. There’s more than enough blame to go around and civilian casualties on both sides.
@nastyboy – OK, give us some facts, figures and numbers about the civilian casualties on both sides.
Via The Galloping Beaver
Nastyboy, this isn’t an editorial page. It’s a community. We don’t edit, we don’t censor. Come back with the facts and numbers that you want to highlight. Seriously.
If your trying to bait me into a who did what to who and someone has greater moral authority to kill the other, I’m not playing that game. Are the Palestinians being mistreated? Yes. Are they blameless as to the cause of this conflict. No. Do the Isreali civilians deserve the few thousand rocket and motar attacks from Gaza last year?
Both sides are to blame. Both sides have blood on their hands.
SL,
If those figures are correct, and I have no reason not to believe you, what did Hammas expect would happen? Israels response may be disproportionate, but they had to expect a response. They are as much to blame as Isreal. I don’t see any moral high ground on either side.
I’m not giving Hamas any sort of free pass here nastyboy, but let me rephrase your question – given the policies and actions of Israel over the years what did they expect would happen?
From your earlier comment, nastyboy
I don’t believe you’ll find anyone arguing to the contrary. There’s plenty of blame, and bloody hands, to go around. But…
The response is outrageously disproportionate and that is exactly that with which some of us take issue.
“Israels response may be disproportionate…”
You break into my house. I shoot you dead. That’s understandable, and regrettable, but a consequence of your decision to break into my home. No tears for you.
If I then go back to your house, shoot your wife, sister and children, and burn down your house as a way to send a message to others who might seek to break into my house…do you think that’s appropriate?
Don’t you ever ask yourself why Israel’s response is obscenely disproportionate? The IDF and IOF have proven themselves to be quite adept at targeted attacks. They have great equipment and skilled snipers. If it was just about the “hail of rockets”, they could easily take out the perpetrators.
Instead, they impose heavy sanctions on an already impoverished people, limit their mobility and access to work, education and health care, detain their politicians, conduct aerial attacks on residential neighbourhoods, etc. All these actions are meant to BREAK a people.
Yes, a dead child. Happens every day somewhere in the world. Why the selective outrage?
Hamas must be stopped. Israel is doing so.
You know, I find it odd to think that Palestinians attempt to pretend they live in a state of normalcy within a state that has no economy, no trade relations, a terrorist government, and no self-sufficiency. Palestinians have children under the worst conditions possible, and they expect some kind of happy ending? They vote for a terrorist government and then blame Israel when bombs drop and kill their family?
Palestine reaps what it sows.
@Raphael Alexander – Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Frank, ditto. You may as well not bother responding to my comments on progressive blogs anymore since I’ve fairly written you off as a person who hasn’t any legitimate ideas beyond your far-left regurgitations. What does your military family think of your cognitive dissonance?
Hear that, Frank? Raph decrees that you may as well not respond to him, because he’s written you off.
Uh…Raph?
We’re kinda more entertained by Frank’s responses – which are blessedly devoid of your pomposity, self-importance and banality – than we are in your excretions. Just so’s ya know.
Raph – I don’t know why I bother, but if you have even the slightest interest in understanding how Gaza got to where it is now and what Israel’s been doing for the past six months, you might want to go read what Jimmy Carter wrote today. Unless you think you know more than he does about the Middle East, of course.
Let me respond on Raph’s behalf.
“Jimmy CARTER? I can’t BELIEVE you’re proposing him seriously as a source on the Middle East. He disagrees with ME! And everyone LIKE me thinks he’s just like totally a, like, JOKE! So there!”
Did I manage to strike the depth of analysis and thoughtful consideration that Raph brings to his political screeds, or was that too deep for him?
@balbulican – You know, Balbulican, I’m mortally wounded by Raph’s rejection. No, really!!!
I know, I know, which is why I hastened to clasp you to the collective bunker bosom. I barely struggle through each bleak, cinder-gray day myself, dragging myself from moment to moment in the shattered, desolate, blighted awareness that I have failed to win Raphael’s approval …
And as I go my way alone
I find it hard for me to carry on
I need your strength
I need your tender touch
I need the love, my dear
I miss so much
My world is empty without you, Raph
My world is empty without you, Raph
From this old world
I try to hide my face
From this loneliness
There’s no hiding place
Inside this cold and empty house I dwell
In darkness with memories
I know so well
My world is empty without you, Raph
My world is empty without you, Raph
My mind and soul
Have felt like this
Since love between us
No more exist
And each time that darkness falls
It finds me alone
With these four walls
*sniff* *sigh*
Shit, man, that was, like, friggin AWESOME.
Jennifer, thanks to the link of Jimmy Carter. Your picture should be sent to Iggy as a postcard – so you support children being killed?
I have to say that most folks have no idea how soul destroying it is to have their children die.
I have little ones. One is about the same age as that poor little thing in the picture.
I would kill anyone who harmed her. Bank on it.
And that is how this goes on and on.
“Hamas must be stopped. Israel is doing so.”
Right. And deaths like this one stop Hamas precisely how?
Because the people of Gaza voted in Hamas, you accused Palestine of “reaping what it sows”. However, given how many civilians have died in this and previous attacks by the Israeli military against Hamas, one could argue that the election of Hamas was Israel reaping what _it_ sowed.
That Hamas is a terrorist organization operating with the stated desire of destroying Israel is not in question, but from what I’m seeing, Israel’s actions are adding more potential terrorists to its future, not less.
If I could believe that this action could cripple Hamas’ ability to operate, I’d feel a lot better about this whole operation than I do. But right now… let’s just say that I have my doubts that Israel’s actions are working toward Israel’s long term security.
James nailed it exactly…. “Because the people of Gaza voted in Hamas, you accused Palestine of “reaping what it sows”. However, given how many civilians have died in this and previous attacks by the Israeli military against Hamas, one could argue that the election of Hamas was Israel reaping what _it_ sowed”…
Also one can not forget the elephant in the room,Israel is occupying Palestinian lands,Israeli is denying Palestinians their rights,Israel continues to build illegal settlements,Palestinians continue to be driven from their homes,farms,olive orchard,violently not peaceable.
The answer is quite simple withdraw to the 67 border , leave E.Jerusalem,and dismantle the illegal settlements (as per UN resolutions).The occupation is driving the resistance,this is an objective truth it is not an opinion..This does not mean I agree with some tactics but it does put everything into context.Peace will be had when Israel withdraws,again as per the numerous UN resolutions and international law,it’s that simple.
Israel can’t afford sympathy right now. Their right to existence is at stake and the vultures in Iran are watching with interest. Save your dead baby pictures for after the terrorists are stamped out.
Don’t be too hard on Raphael. He suffers an affliction that is all to common amongst his ilk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
That is, the greater his ignorance and lack of insight into a particular issue the greater his confidence in his insights into that issue, and ability to see it in black and white. And there is no limit to the depths of Raphael’s ignorance.
Raphael,
Would you like to see the laws of Canada changed to reflect your sense of “justice”? For example, if you tossed a Molotov cocktail through my window and I responded by killing your wife, one of your children, and maybe a couple of your nieces , then prevented ambulances from reaching your remaining critically injured child who lay clinging to your dead wife for a couple days, would you like to see the law charge you for the entirety of the crimes described above?
If anything the opposite is true. The state of Palestine along with its people is at risk and has been practically destroyed. As you said there is no economy, no security. There is a reason for this, there is an actor who continues to make this so. And you’d see who if you’d only open your eyes.
Guys…Raphael is now officially on ideolautopilot.There’s no one home but the conditioned reflex. Save your pixels.
Dirk
The answer is quite simple withdraw to the 67 border , leave E.Jerusalem,and dismantle the illegal settlements (as per UN resolutions).The occupation is driving the resistance,this is an objective truth it is not an opinion..This does not mean I agree with some tactics but it does put everything into context.Peace will be had when Israel withdraws,again as per the numerous UN resolutions and international law,it’s that simple.
Peace will be had when BOTH sides want it. You’re right about the need to redefine the border. The two state solution is probably the only way towards peace. I’ve heard proposals to make Jerusalem an “International City” to be administered by a neutral party. Interesting idea, but that would never fly.
As long as the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab/Persian world demands “Death to Israel!!”, don’t expect the Israelis to make any consessions. And as long as good ship Islam is steered by the Wahabist death cult in that part of the world, that isn’t going to change. How do you make peace with people who demand your destruction? But then, as Israel continues on it’s current path, it adds fuel to that fire.
It’s a circle of the most vicious kind, and as usual it’s the innocent who suffer. It breaks my heart.
I do have to wonder if maybe re-occupation of Gaza may not be the best option in this sorry situation. Going in and just blowing stuff up doesn’t seem to do much but create more terrorists and reduce the long term security of Israel. However, if Israel were to take control of the country, impose security and (most importantly) spend the money to rebuild the infrastructure, maybe things would improve. A part of me thinks that the problem is that the response is too short-term and one-sided. Israel has to show that Israeli-rebuilt schools can operate better than Hamas operated ones, and show the benefits of keeping the peace with Israel, rather than simply the consequences of making war with Israel. Once Hamas has been dismantled, but the infrastructure of Gaza restored, then Israel could pull out to its 1967 boundary.
“The response is outrageously disproportionate and that is exactly that with which some of us take issue”. – Frank Fink
Since some silly comparisons have been made, ie, ‘you break into my house and I will kill you and your family’, why not stretch it further. Instead of body counts, would you be happier if there was an equal missile count? So for every missle Hamas sent over the last 2 years or so, how about the Israelis sent a missile back. Not fair you may exclaim since Gaza is so densely populated?
There is no fair final solution. Just keep yapping, gives us all something to do in the safe comfort of our homes.
@Canuckguy – Oh, that was a brilliant analysis (and analogy), just brilliant… oh wait, it’s not.
FF, off topic, but what’s the HTML code to position the page to the highlighted post, like you just did with canuck guy there?
I didn’t code anything, I just clicked on the ‘Reply’ link just below canuckguy’s posted comment. Do you see a ‘Reply’ and a ‘Quote’ link below each comment?
I should have expanded on my reply to canuckguy’s comment. I understand where he’s going with that argument. Where it falls apart for me, and it should appear self-evident to anyone who is thinking, is that it could only be a fair argument (or analogy) to make if both sides had exactly the same fire power.
To make another analogy then — the reality is that one combatant has a BB gun, the other a semi-automatic rifle. Canuckguy’s argument would be fair if both combatants each had only a BB gun or each had only a semi-automatic rifle.
Where it falls apart for me, and it should appear self-evident to anyone who is thinking, is that it could only be a fair argument (or analogy) to make if both sides had exactly the same fire power.
To make another analogy then — the reality is that one combatant has a BB gun, the other a semi-automatic rifle. Canuckguy’s argument would be fair if both combatants each had only a BB gun or each had only a semi-automatic rifle.
Are we witnessing a war or playing chess here?
Nasty said…”As long as the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab/Persian world demands “Death to Israel!!”, don’t expect the Israelis to make any consessions. And as long as good ship Islam is steered by the Wahabist death cult in that part of the world, that isn’t going to change. How do you make peace with people who demand your destruction? But then, as Israel continues on it’s current path, it adds fuel to that fire”…
yeah we know Nasty boy …yawn.
Here I will make it real simple for you.The occupation of Palestinian land is the root of the problem,Israeli’s i.e Jews occupy Palestinian lands it is NOT the other way around.Settlement building is a form of violence.Palestinians are imprisoned,not free to move about, humiliated daily,boxed in by hundreds of roadblocks etc etc etc
In fact check out the progress of Israeli incursions on Palestinian lands(in map form)
http://www.mediabuzzard.com/?p=1830
Again its very simple leave the occupied lands(including East Jerusalem)again as per International law as,per numerous UN resolutions.
Anything less is apologetic bullshit/head up the ass-nonsense.Sorry if I might be coming across as some what pissed,but hundreds of people are being slaughtered as we speak !
When people from countries as blessed as Canada defend/apologize for Israel or refuse to see the reality,i.e THE ISRAELI’S ARE OCCUPYING PALESTINIAN LANDS AND FOR OVER 40 FREAKING YEARS AND COUNTING.PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN RESISTING EVER SINCE,I.E…AND LONG BEFORE THE SO CALLED “ISLAMIST THREAT” (ANOTHER BIG RED HERRING)
Nasty said…”As long as the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab/Persian world demands “Death to Israel!!”, don’t expect the Israelis to make any consessions. And as long as good ship Islam is steered by the Wahabist death cult in that part of the world, that isn’t going to change. How do you make peace with people who demand your destruction? But then, as Israel continues on it’s current path, it adds fuel to that fire”…
yeah we know Nasty boy …yawn.
Here I will make it real simple for you.The occupation of Palestinian land is the root of the problem,Israeli’s i.e Jews occupy Palestinian lands it is NOT the other way around.Settlement building is a form of violence.Palestinians are imprisoned,not free to move about, humiliated daily,boxed in by hundreds of roadblocks etc etc etc
In fact check out the progress of Israeli incursions on Palestinian lands(in map form)
http://www.mediabuzzard.com/?p=1830
Again its very simple leave the occupied lands(including East Jerusalem)again as per International law as,per numerous UN resolutions.
Anything less is apologetic bullshit/head up ass-nonsense.Sorry if I might be coming across as some what pissed,but hundreds of people are being slaughtered !
When people from countries as blessed as Canada defend/apologize for Israel or refuse to see the reality,i.e THE ISRAELI’S ARE OCCUPYING PALESTINIAN LANDS AND FOR OVER 40 FREAKING YEARS AND COUNTING.PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN RESISTING EVERSINCE,I.E…LONG BEFORE THE SO CALLED “ISLAMIST THREAT”.
“Are we witnessing a war or playing chess here?” – Peter
Ans: ‘here’ we are playing at debating, like it is actually going to make any difference. Very few people change their mindset regardless of the information.
Now over ‘there’, they are having a war of sorts.
As for you Fink, the analogy would be that both side have the same kind of missiles, since I made the comment that it would not be fair due to the population density difference, I assumed that would be a gimme.
This yapping that everybody is doing is just that, it is of no consequence. Amusing diversion in my idle time. Too many are bloated with pompous pronouncements. It’s an harmless addiction except for the time wasted.
@Canuckguy – I ‘assume’ very little, particularly intentions. I also don’t read minds
Point taken, Fink
@Canuckguy – pssst… It’s Frink, not Fink unless you’re making a sly reference to either The Man in the High Castle or Big Daddy Roth.
I don’t think we are yapping, but I’m more than a little puzzled as to where Stageleft, Dr. Dawg and the other best progressive sites think they are taking us with this gruesome, in-your-face litany of human tragedy. Stageleft says: “I thought those defending it might like to see it instead of just read about it”, suggesting, I presume, his belief that Israeli supporters assume the Israelis have raised the art of warfare to new levels of civilian casualty-free moral purity and righteousness. What those pictures do for me is to make me very, very sad and angry at the Israelis, but even more seethingly, irredeemably, disgusted by the evil of Hamas and more resolved to support its destruction as quickly and surgically as possible. We know how they operate: terrorizing and sacrificing their civilian population, blowing up Israeli civilians as offical policy, threatening worldwide Jewry, refusing to address Palestinian development, keeping Israel’s very existence in play (all the while insisting that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic) and doing everything it can to garner international support for its twin goals of totalitarian government and ceaseless terrorism and war. If you think Israel is an illegitimate state and want it eradicated, say so and answer to that position, but don’t just assume that view will somehow spring vicariously into the hearts of decent folks from repeated exposure to heart-rending pictures of Palestinian war deaths when everyone knows who initiated civilian terror. You want to make hearts cry out and stomachs churn about dead children? Let’s talk Sudan and Congo.
dirk
When people from countries as blessed as Canada defend/apologize for Israel or refuse to see the reality; THE ISRAELI’S ARE OCCUPYING PALESTINIAN LANDS AND FOR OVER 40 FREAKING YEARS AND COUNTING.PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN RESISTING EVERSINCE,I.E…LONG BEFORE THE SO CALLED “ISLAMIST THREAT”.
you mean the land seized by Isreal after numerous wars where their Arab neighbours tried to wipe them off the map? While I agree that the 1967 borders should be restored, I understand why Israel is hesitant not to do it.
UNDERSTAND not AGREE.
It’s also easy for people from “countries as blessed as Canada” to sit back and damn Israel because we can’t comprehend the threat that they live under. And that threat is real, and has existed since Israels creation.
Oh oh Peter, you’re entering Raphael Alexander territory.
I wrote Raph off when he effectively defended the starving of “the babies of terrorists.”
http://unambig.blogspot.com/2008/11/drdawg-babies-of-terrorists-are-hungry.html
And here’s history quickly repeated, the second time as farce:
http://unambig.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/it-doesnt-make-any-sense-whatsoever/#comment-5198
There’s a good discussion of long-term solutions developing at my place–not, I hasten to add, that we couldn’t have it here, but my fingers are getting sore.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/drdawg/3062628104095011389/#203665
Why do my comments end up as “under moderation?” Sheesh, I’ve always behaved myself here.
Dawg, it’s unintentional – I think it may have to do with the number of links in your response. Stage will talk to the hostages down in the engine room.
I am moving my comment from another thread into this one, because here is where the action seems to be:
I wish I had a coherent political philosophy so that I could reach the kinds of firm conclusions that give us all so much comfort. But all I see in the above is another iteration of a stimulus/response cycle, with no solution and no good guys. Some random thoughts, without a synthesis:
Israel’s actions are the fruition of its “Never Again” culture. It’s an idea I understand, and it is admirably clear. It does not mean: “Never again, unless the Security Council agrees”. Or “Never again, unless we have the moral support of the rest of the world. Or “Never again, unless we can surgically remove terrorist and military elements opposing us without civilian deaths.” It means: “we are under threat, under siege, and we will do what WE believe it takes to defend ourselves, without waiting for the help, approval, or permission of anyone else, ever again.”
A decision to go to war is a decision to kill civilians, including children. The best trained militaries – US, Canadian, whoever – do what they can not to, and it still happens. Their opponents allege it is deliberate, or a campaign of terror. We usually find out it’s not – it’s the result of systems of incomprehensible complexity failing to work as anticipated in reality. Could the Israeli, Canadian, American forces always do more to avoid civilian deaths? Yes.
The problem with Israel’s strategy, it seems to me (and I am afraid I have to acknowledge that I am NOT, in lrC’s terms, “knowledgeable”), is that it cannot succeed.
In Dr. Dawg’s open thread about Cuba, several folks raised the point that Castro remains in power in part because he exploits the very real threat of American aggression against his country. For many Cubans, Castro’s communism and effective dictatorship is galling, but preferable to conquest by a country they see as an international bully: Castro is one of “theirs”, standing up to the Bad Guy.
It takes a pretty cold and sophisticated world view to look at the corpse of your child and think “Gosh, I guess we brought this on ourselves by the political intransigence of our leaders and our failure to adequately control the militants in our midst.” A much more likely response is to listen to folks who tell you that the folks who killed your child are your enemies, and that they want to kill you too. It’s simply foolish to pretend that this Israeli action is not going to fuel another Palestinian reaction, which will fuel yet another Israeli reaction, which will fuel…
There are many reasons to oppose Israel’s action (and some to support it). But the bottom line is that it simply will not work.
@Raphael Alexander –
“Hamas must be stopped. Israel is doing so.”
I’ll bet a week’s pay that one picture alone has created 5 new Hamas recruits and 10 new moderates who’ll support them.
Hamas must indeed be stopped, but Israel is actually strengthening them. Wontonly killing civillians has never stopped any kind of insurgency. Ever.
If you could put aside your anti-Muslim hatred for a minute and see the folly of Israel’s actions even from the cold perspective of effective strategy, you might also agree that they are wrong.
Pretending this is the fault of electing Hamas is like telling a rape victim she shouldn’t have been wearing a low cut dress.
But, easier to pretend the rag-heads had it coming than to be honest I suppose.
Fink:
I left out the ‘r’ since ‘r’ is for ‘right’.
So perhaps ‘Flink’ would do in your case.
Flank Flink has a nice ring to it.
So much for a serious discussion. I needed a break from the moaning on about the problems of the world.
@Mike – I always had more respect for you, Mike, than your ideologue colleagues who use such wormtongued language as “ragheads”. Next thing you know you’ll be using language like “teh mooslims” and calling me a mouthbreather.
The simple fact is that I don’t have a racial preference in this conflict. As far as I’m concerned, the Jews and Muslims look almost identical in this region, and I don’t really have a problem with the Islamic religion or the people who practice it in general. I’m not calling for Muslims in Canada to be deported, or any such silliness.
But Israel is doing essentially what needs to be done, and most leaders of the free world agree with that decision, including the Liberal leader of Canada. James Bow may be correct in that perhaps Israel should occupy Gaza again. Clearly these people cannot be depended upon for autonomous rule and peaceful coexistence. Better to control the terrorism underfoot than to battle it across the border.
“Clearly these people cannot be depended upon for autonomous rule and peaceful coexistence. ”
Bollocks Raph.
The minute they were elected, they were made the pariah, with their funds cut off. Rather than having to deal with actually ruling, they had a ready made excuse for not doing so. They were never given the chance to “rule” autonomously or otherwise. Its hard to mount a bunch of rocket attacks when your voters are asking about garbage disposal and traffic lights.
I’d also like to point out that the current ceasefire was broken by Israel on November 4 and again on November 14. More Palestinians were killed in those two incidents than all of the Isrealis killed in the last two years AND in the current conflict combined. In fact, most of the IDF soldiers killed so far have been from friendly fire.
Sorry to imply racist motivation to you, but where else can I go? I fully support Israel’s right to both exist and defend itself but I recognize that the way they have been doing it, not just in the current conflict but for all of the years since Rabin’s assassination, is not working and actually making things worse. I’ve tried to explain it here and in other threads at other places, only to for you to respond with the same old “”bomb them until the get rid of Hamas” stuff.
For someone I usually have good relations with and even agree with on occasion, I find your position puzzling, to say the least.
Bottom line, the Germans didn’t bomb the Brits into submission during the blitz, they didn’t end the fight of the partisans in Yugoslavia or the East by wiping Lidice off the map. Nor did the British break the back of the Germans with the firebombing of Dresden. In all these cases the violence only increased the will to fight, and strengthened the hate for the aggressors.
The Israelis will not accomplish the same thing against Hamas with the same kind of actions any more than the mortar fire and Qassam attacks will make Israelis leave.
Its not working and its actually making things worse not better.
And if you can’t see that, I really have no idea what else to say.
Nasty said…”you mean the land seized by Isreal after numerous wars where their Arab neighbours tried to wipe them off the map? While I agree that the 1967 borders should be restored, I understand why Israel is hesitant not to do it.
And this was in reaction to what…?
O yeah the founding of Israel on lands that had a pre-existing indigenous population.O yeah AFTER Jewish terrorist bombed and terrorized Palestinians,in their bid to drive the indigenous pop from their lands (consequently creating 1 million refugees) that they European Jews(fleeing Europe & other Europeans) coveted.
The so called “Jewish homeland” despite the fact (even today) 1/4 of the pop is not Jewish(sounds like a theocratic state as opposed to a secular one as is often claimed) was built on the lands of a disposed population, was unilateral imposed on Palestinians/Arabs,by the (white) European powers of the day.
Palestinians and Arabs had no say in the matter,indeed they were not even consulted.
Yep how dare the Arab countries stand up for,the over 1 million Palestinians who were forced from their land by Jewish terrorists,force of arms,fraud,theft etc etc
Yep how dare Palestinians resist how,how dare they cry foul !
Just want to put it out there – even though it came from trolling – animals of childbearing age who are fertile, including humans, don’t choose to have babies.
Humans who have sufficient technology, security/safety, equality, and education can choose NOT to have babies, but having babies is the biological default for that group.
Hence, unless Palestine is covered in clinics providing birth control, is teaching all its citizens (but especially horny teens) with a comprehensive understanding of sex and reproduction, believes in women’s right to say no in marriage, believes in the right of all people to have sexual release through something other than intercourse, and has a zero incidence of rape …. well, without those things both available and acceptable, babies will get born as sure as the sun’ll come up tomorrow. No choice to it.
dirk
The so called “Jewish homeland” despite the fact (even today) 1/4 of the pop is not Jewish(sounds like a theocratic state as opposed to a secular one as is often claimed) was built on the lands of a disposed population, was unilateral imposed on Palestinians/Arabs,by the (white) European powers of the day. Palestinians and Arabs had no say in the matter,indeed they were not even consulted.
Before that region was Muslim it was Christian, before it was Christian it was Jewish. Before it was Jewish it was something else, etc., etc.
If you don’t think Israel has a legitimate right to exist. Why don’t you just say it.
Wow, amazing how hateful some people are.
Those Palestinian victims (including hundreds of children) reaped what they sowed. Why? Because they elected a government that Israel, US and western governments disapproved of? And why did these people vote for Hamas, because they were standing up for them and on the ground helping them. Sheesh, what stupid people eh?
Given their options, they will always go with the group or political party that best represents their interests. Funny how democracy works. As for rocket attacks, they are the only means of crying out against aggression, be it unlawful detention of hundreds of Palestinians, surgical strikes on leaders and other militants, road blocks and check points, withholding of tax revenues, aggressive sanctions, etc. How anyone could call that good faith negotiations for peace is amazing.
This aggressive assault on Gaza will not thwart Hamas but embolden them. Just like the incursions and bombing on Lebanon did nothing to stop support for Hezbollah. In the meantime, hundreds if not thousands of children will be murdered and maimed. Shame on Canada for not demanding an immediate, unconditional ceasefire.
“Why the selective outrage?
Hamas must be stopped.”
You really can’t sum up irony better than that.
Nasty said…”Before that region was Muslim it was Christian, before it was Christian it was Jewish. Before it was Jewish it was something else, etc., etc.
Excuse me ,better brush up on your history
Nasty said..”If you don’t think Israel has a legitimate right to exist. Why don’t you just say it”.
My opinion matter in the least,again the indigenous population was chased off their lands to make way for European Jews.That is the root of the problem,that is the issue that must be dealt with.That said there are 5.4 million Jews in Israel and 1.4 million Arabs.Counting the Arabs in the occupied territories(4+million) the populations are roughly equal,although the Arab/Palestinian birth rate is much higher than the Jewish birthrate.
Personally I support a one state solution one man one vote.
Israeli policies such as building more and more settlements year after year,are in themselves diminishing the viability(economically etc) of a Palestinian state.
So in the end it might well be the demographic situation that finally puts this issue to bed.
Indeed I am fairly convinced Israeli as a Jewish state will disappear in my life time,through the establishment of a bi-national secular state which recognizes the rights of both Jews & Muslims.This I believe is the best solution.
dirk
Excuse me ,better brush up on your history
Persian rule (538 BCE)
Hellenistic rule (333 BCE)
Hasmonean dynasty (140 BCE)
Roman rule (63 BCE)
Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) rule (330–640 CE)
Islamic period (630-1918 CE)
Arab Caliphate rule (638–1099 CE)
Umayyad rule (661–750 CE)
Abbasid rule (750–969 CE)
Fatimid rule (969–1099 CE)
Crusader rule (1099–1187 CE)
Mamluk rule (1270–1516 CE)
Ottoman rule (1516–1831 CE)
Egyptian rule (1831-1841)
Ottoman rule (1841-1917)
British Mandate (1920–1948)
UN partition
before the Roman Empire, Palestine was a Jewish state, It was Christian during and briefly after the Roman empire, after the conversion of Constantine, and the Byzantine Empire. It didn’t become a muslim region unil the 7th century.
Don’t lecture me on history.
As far as a “One State Solution’. Dream on. It’s the one option, neither side wants.
The so called “Jewish homeland” despite the fact (even today) 1/4 of the pop is not Jewish(sounds like a theocratic state as opposed to a secular one as is often claimed) was built on the lands of a disposed population, was unilateral imposed on Palestinians/Arabs,by the (white) European powers of the day.
Kind of like Canada.
and Israel may not be a “secular state” by western standards, but the minority citizens of Israel have full rights of citizenship. which is more than can be said of their Arab neighbours treatment of their non-muslim citizens.
Since I don’t like to assume I’ll hazard a guess you’re referring to the Saudis or something like that in the last sentence.
If you literally meant Israel’s neighbours then I’m not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean the nearly 40% of Lebanon’s population which is Christian does not have full citizenship rights?
I did not use the words “dispassionate and knowledgeable” as a pseudo-Chomsky “every serious person”.
“dispassionate” = able to set aside one’s emotional response in order to consider the implications of weakening principles of international law (some could stand to be weakened, but not the principles governing the misuse of protected places/persons).
“knowledgeable” = understanding what is militarily possible. Not every weapon team and military leader can be assassinated via Predator drone or SAS team insertion.
Israel’s war is probably legal, but in my view assuredly unjust. I doubt it can pass at least two tests: that it was likely to succeed, and that the beneficial outcomes would outweigh the costs.
I suppose Israel loses more people in a week to traffic accidents than it does to Palestinian military action in a year – possibly in several years. The complications are that:
1) “Those people” did it; it was not merely bad judgement/fortune.
2) The knowledge of rocket and other terror attacks is a source of stress entirely unlike the occasional fleeting thought that one might die in a car.
One could argue that Israel could stand to tolerate the fruits of Palestinian anger and endure the results, particularly since the security “wall” has reduced suicide bombings. As a legal question, though, Israel does not have to.
The solution lies in “Responsibility to Protect”, and therefore in paternalism. Israelis bid war to form a state and subsequently to defend it, and succeeded; it is accomplished and therefore difficult to undo. Palestinians bid war to regain a state or form an alternate one, and have failed, and persist in the failure. Given the likelihood of angry Palestinians to reinitiate conflict, a solution which requires Israel to accept Palestinian resettlement or similar concessions is impractical. Israel has done about as much as it can, which is to control its borders. As part of that, Israel also needs to cease its embargo, which is possible only if a third party will step in to forcibly disarm, monitor, and govern Palestinians for the next few decades.
It is also necessary to control Iranian proxy adventurism among the Palestinians and Lebanese. I’m not sure how the political will to do so can be mustered by the nations with the power to do so. Note that I’m not calling for war on Iran; I’m confident other ways can be found but also accept those ways might call for a paternalistic presence in Lebanon.
Frank Frink
Since I don’t like to assume I’ll hazard a guess you’re referring to the Saudis or something like that in the last sentence.
Yes. Thank you for the reminder of the perils of wide-sweeping statements.
And re-reading my comment to dirk “Don’t lecture me on history.”, I apoplogize. That sounds snippy. I only meant to never doubt my madd hizitory skillz.
And the “One Nation Solution” is an interesting idea, but not practicable.
@Frank Frink – Is one of the reasons that the Isreali response appears disproportionate (if looking at the number of civilian deaths) because Isreal has built bomb shelters for their citizens and Hamas has not?
Does anyone know?
@Candace – Possibly, and I don’t really know the answer regarding bomb shelters. Believe there are quite a few more factors involved, some discussed above, than simply not enough, or no, bomb shelters.
I think a more probable explanation is that Israel maintains a large, well-trained, well-equipped national army and airforce, implementing a massive, coordinated, sustained military action: whereas the attacks originating from Gaza are single missiles fired sporadically by terrorists.
No Raphael, Israel, and Hamas, are doing what needs to be done to prolong this conflict.
Given that they have not been given the opportunity that’s a fairly broad statement to make don’t you think?
Originally Posted By Peter don’t think we are yapping, but I’m more than a little puzzled as to where Stageleft, Dr. Dawg and the other best progressive sites think they are taking us with this gruesome, in-your-face litany of human tragedy.
Because this is what war is Peter. It’s not pretty flag waving or national anthems played while brave young men and women march off to defend the homeland, or even the distant sound of artillery going off with a cloud of smoke rising on the horizon – it’s the blood and guts of women and children splattered into gutters and all over walls.
Bringing up that sort of thing up can get ya labeled an anti-Semite dirk… polite company neither talks about things like that, or subsequent celebrations of those events.
I’d go further but this has just about wrapped up my entire energy use quota for the day – I’ll be back when this heinous head cold leaves me.
If you wonder why the bunker has been a bit quiet over the last few days, Stage has got a killer cold/flu and I am dealing with horrible family shit. Bear with us.
Best wishes to both of you.
Nasty said…”As far as a “One State Solution’. Dream on. It’s the one option, neither side wants”…
You are taking things personally ?,”its not about me having to dream on”.The demographic situation is as I described.
Israeli actions and policy’s are taking the viability,of a separate Palestinian state out of the equation.But that said if Israel were to(by some miracle)reverses her self and pull back to the 67 border & leave E.Jerusalem,well than a two state solution might well be the outcome.
Again I don’t have to “dream on” ?
Nasty said…”Israel may not be a “secular state” by western standards, but the minority citizens of Israel have full rights of citizenship. which is more than can be said of their Arab neighbours treatment of their non-muslim citizens.”…
This is not true,there are different rule/laws for Arab Israelis(1.4 million)….For example an Israeli Jew can marry another Jew any where on the plant and bring his/her spouse back to Israel.An Israeli Arab/Palestinian can not even marry another Palestinian in the W.Bank or Gaza with the intention of living in Israel.
A Jew from any where on the planet has a right,by virtue of the fact that he or she is Jewish,to settle and live in Israel.
Arab refugees(1,000,000+ who can prove their tie to land inside Israel have no right of return.
The aim is obvious,that being to ensure Israel remains a Jewish state.A true secular democracy would never consider passing such laws based on religion and ethnicity.
http://www.arabhra.org/HRA/Pages/Index.aspx?Language=2
And again on my point…”that there was a pre-existing indigenous population”,Possession is 9 tenths of the law.
The Palestinian/Arab claim to the land goes back centuries.This is not a theory or speculation,they have lived and thrived for centuries,again on the lands now being claimed by Israeli Jews(i.e the majority being European immigrants).
But I suppose if we go back far enough in time we are all “immigrants”.
[...] Stageleft fails to make the weepingly obvious distinction that blaming Hamas is nothing like our government “defending” this, Balbulican…? A different tack. I’m starting to think the term ‘moral [...]
The Palestinian/Arab claim to the land goes back centuries.This is not a theory or speculation,they have lived and thrived for centuries,again on the lands now being claimed by Israeli Jews(i.e the majority being European immigrants).
But I suppose if we go back far enough in time we are all “immigrants”.
The Jewish claim on the land pre-dates Islam.
SL:
It’s not pretty flag waving or national anthems played while brave young men and women march off to defend the homeland, or even the distant sound of artillery going off with a cloud of smoke rising on the horizon – it’s the blood and guts of women and children splattered into gutters and all over walls.
You mean it’s not healthy for children and other living things? Well, I’ll be!
Patronize much?
Nasty said…”The Jewish claim on the land pre-dates Islam.”…
Let’s just say for the SAKE of argument you are correct.
Does that then imply a 2000+ year claim based on the bible ,negates the 1000+ years of continuous use & occupation of lands by Palestinians/Arabs.
Indeed most Palestinian know (intimately) the villages and or valleys from where their family’s originated,unlike the Jewish settlers(European) the majority having no family or historical ties to the lands they now claim.
Surely the people living on the land for the past 1000+ years have the stronger “claim”,indeed for all intensive purposes the land belongs to them period !
Surely you are not arguing that European Jews(who lived else where and have/had been for centuries) now have a right to Palestinian lands,again based solely on some highly contentious/pseudo 2000+ year claim.(this is not to deny that some Jews did not live on these lands, nor Christians for that matter)
The world just does not work that way Nasty,in fact if we were to try,we would all be immigrants from else where. With few peoples if any being able to prove continuous ownership,of a particular chunk of land,going back to the dawn of time.
P.S I am done.
@Dr.Dawg – It’s the SPAM filtering system I have on the go… anything more than one link in a comment and it is automatically shunted to moderation to help stop the SPAMmers from trying to sell us modern enhancement technology