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	<title>Comments on: How Much Law Breakin&#8217; Is Too Much Law Breakin&#8217;?</title>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138958</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138958</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Kateland is right here.  Provided the decision is taken in good faith and isn&#039;t tinged with corruption, the police and the Crown always have the discretion not to charge, even in serious cases.

You have to vote ultimately for the rights of the citizen over police efficiency, but you can&#039;t get much of a handle on whether the legal balance is just or sensible without taking a look as the myriad legal decisions that define that balance.  Before our Charter-inspired aping of the Americans, I believe the rule was that you could sue or seek discipline for an illegal search, but not exclude the illicit fruits of such a search from evidence.  It isn&#039;t at all clear to me why it&#039;s a good idea that you can now, although I would concede dogmatism isn&#039;t terribly helpful on this one.  The criminal justice system is certainly supposed to safeguard the individual from the arbitrary acts of the much more powerful state, but it isn&#039;t supposed to be a chess game.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;138958&#039;,&#039;Peter&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;138958&#039;,&#039;Peter&#039;,&#039;I don\&#039;t think Kateland is right here.  Provided the decision is taken in good faith and isn\&#039;t tinged with corruption, the police and the Crown always have the discretion not to charge, even in serious cases.\r\n\r\nYou have to vote ultimately for the rights of the citizen over police efficiency, but you can\&#039;t get much of a handle on whether the legal balance is just or sensible without taking a look as the myriad legal decisions that define that balance.  Before our Charter-inspired aping of the Americans, I believe the rule was that you could sue or seek discipline for an illegal search, but not exclude the illicit fruits of such a search from evidence.  It isn\&#039;t at all clear to me why it\&#039;s a good idea that you can now, although I would concede dogmatism isn\&#039;t terribly helpful on this one.  The criminal justice system is certainly supposed to safeguard the individual from the arbitrary acts of the much more powerful state, but it isn\&#039;t supposed to be a chess game.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Kateland is right here.  Provided the decision is taken in good faith and isn&#8217;t tinged with corruption, the police and the Crown always have the discretion not to charge, even in serious cases.</p>
<p>You have to vote ultimately for the rights of the citizen over police efficiency, but you can&#8217;t get much of a handle on whether the legal balance is just or sensible without taking a look as the myriad legal decisions that define that balance.  Before our Charter-inspired aping of the Americans, I believe the rule was that you could sue or seek discipline for an illegal search, but not exclude the illicit fruits of such a search from evidence.  It isn&#8217;t at all clear to me why it&#8217;s a good idea that you can now, although I would concede dogmatism isn&#8217;t terribly helpful on this one.  The criminal justice system is certainly supposed to safeguard the individual from the arbitrary acts of the much more powerful state, but it isn&#8217;t supposed to be a chess game.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138958','Peter'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138958','Peter','I don\'t think Kateland is right here.  Provided the decision is taken in good faith and isn\'t tinged with corruption, the police and the Crown always have the discretion not to charge, even in serious cases.\r\n\r\nYou have to vote ultimately for the rights of the citizen over police efficiency, but you can\'t get much of a handle on whether the legal balance is just or sensible without taking a look as the myriad legal decisions that define that balance.  Before our Charter-inspired aping of the Americans, I believe the rule was that you could sue or seek discipline for an illegal search, but not exclude the illicit fruits of such a search from evidence.  It isn\'t at all clear to me why it\'s a good idea that you can now, although I would concede dogmatism isn\'t terribly helpful on this one.  The criminal justice system is certainly supposed to safeguard the individual from the arbitrary acts of the much more powerful state, but it isn\'t supposed to be a chess game.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Candace</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138951</link>
		<dc:creator>Candace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138951</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Kateland (and others) here &#8211; the reality is, the cocaine is off the street.  Rap the cop&#8217;s knuckles (a few days without pay or a demotion or something) and move on.</p>
<p>re: &#8220;&#8230;“How can we say that it is more important to condemn Charter breaches than to prosecute, for example, a child murderer?” she asked&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Bernardo/Homolka (wow I forget how to spell her name) comes to mind.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138951','Candace'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138951','Candace','I\'m with Kateland (and others) here - the reality is, the cocaine is off the street.  Rap the cop\'s knuckles (a few days without pay or a demotion or something) and move on.\r\n\r\nre: \&quot;...&acirc;How can we say that it is more important to condemn Charter breaches than to prosecute, for example, a child murderer?&acirc; she asked...\&quot;\r\n\r\nBernardo\/Homolka (wow I forget how to spell her name) comes to mind.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Kateland</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138939</link>
		<dc:creator>Kateland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138939</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are trying to compare legalist apples and oranges. It is one thing for an individual to choose to break or not break a law mandated by the state – which said individual may have no interest or say in creating, and another for an agent of the state, acting on behalf of the state, to deliberately choose to circumvent those same laws and rights mandated by the state.</p>
<p>Having said that, if I remember correctly, there are occasions where the Police Act allows an individual police officer to warn or ignore an individual’s action or conduct, if said Police Officer believes no public interest is served by enforcing the law which would be prosecuted as a summary offence. A summary offence is the key word here. Indictable offences for murder, rape, etc., are not subject to discretionary powers of the state’s enforcers.</p>
<p> For example, blasphemy laws are still included in the criminal code but are currently not enforced. I doubt you could find a sitting court criminal justice who would not take great offense at having to preside over a blasphemy trial for a man cursing Jesus on a public street – although I would expect a cop might choose to charge the individual with causing a disturbance in a public place instead. I know in Ontario, depending on the nature of the offence, you can plea guilty with an explanation, and avoid either conviction or penalty providing you prove to a justice you had ‘just cause’ to break the law.</p>
<p>I have very little sympathy for the crown counsel’s position because it gives legal license for individual police officers of the state to change the nature of their role at their sole discretion with no judicial oversight and regardless of the nature of the offence. Now in the case before the Supreme Court, it may well be defendant will walk, but the public interest is still being served by the illegal seizure of cocaine as no justice will order the police to return a illegal substance to the defendant, and therefore, the potential harm to the ‘public good’ which the distribution of that cocaine could have caused, is still be circumvented.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138939','Kateland'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138939','Kateland','I think you are trying to compare legalist apples and oranges. It is one thing for an individual to choose to break or not break a law mandated by the state &acirc; which said individual may have no interest or say in creating, and another for an agent of the state, acting on behalf of the state, to deliberately choose to circumvent those same laws and rights mandated by the state.\r\n\r\nHaving said that, if I remember correctly, there are occasions where the Police Act allows an individual police officer to warn or ignore an individual&acirc;s action or conduct, if said Police Officer believes no public interest is served by enforcing the law which would be prosecuted as a summary offence. A summary offence is the key word here. Indictable offences for murder, rape, etc., are not subject to discretionary powers of the state&acirc;s enforcers.\r\n\r\n For example, blasphemy laws are still included in the criminal code but are currently not enforced. I doubt you could find a sitting court criminal justice who would not take great offense at having to preside over a blasphemy trial for a man cursing Jesus on a public street &acirc; although I would expect a cop might choose to charge the individual with causing a disturbance in a public place instead. I know in Ontario, depending on the nature of the offence, you can plea guilty with an explanation, and avoid either conviction or penalty providing you prove to a justice you had &acirc;just cause&acirc; to break the law.\r\n\r\nI have very little sympathy for the crown counsel&acirc;s position because it gives legal license for individual police officers of the state to change the nature of their role at their sole discretion with no judicial oversight and regardless of the nature of the offence. Now in the case before the Supreme Court, it may well be defendant will walk, but the public interest is still being served by the illegal seizure of cocaine as no justice will order the police to return a illegal substance to the defendant, and therefore, the potential harm to the &acirc;public good&acirc; which the distribution of that cocaine could have caused, is still be circumvented.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Ron Good</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138938</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Good</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138938</guid>
		<description>I pay strict attention to &lt;i&gt;rights&lt;/i&gt; and I work hard to consistently honour them, support them and to not violate them even when it would be easier, faster or just more to my immediate liking or comfort. 

Legal/illegal however doesn&#039;t count in my thinking except as a factor in risk assessment, ever.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;138938&#039;,&#039;Ron Good&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;138938&#039;,&#039;Ron Good&#039;,&#039;I pay strict attention to &lt;i&gt;rights&lt;\/i&gt; and I work hard to consistently honour them, support them and to not violate them even when it would be easier, faster or just more to my immediate liking or comfort. \r\n\r\nLegal\/illegal however doesn\&#039;t count in my thinking except as a factor in risk assessment, ever.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pay strict attention to <i>rights</i> and I work hard to consistently honour them, support them and to not violate them even when it would be easier, faster or just more to my immediate liking or comfort. </p>
<p>Legal/illegal however doesn&#8217;t count in my thinking except as a factor in risk assessment, ever.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138938','Ron Good'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138938','Ron Good','I pay strict attention to &lt;i&gt;rights&lt;\/i&gt; and I work hard to consistently honour them, support them and to not violate them even when it would be easier, faster or just more to my immediate liking or comfort. \r\n\r\nLegal\/illegal however doesn\'t count in my thinking except as a factor in risk assessment, ever.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: SUZANNE</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138935</link>
		<dc:creator>SUZANNE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 05:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138935</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to go with &quot;no&quot; as well. It&#039;s a basic right not to be subject to arbitrary searches.

It&#039;s one thing to break a *law*. It&#039;s another to violate a right.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;138935&#039;,&#039;SUZANNE&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;138935&#039;,&#039;SUZANNE&#039;,&#039;I\&#039;m going to go with \&quot;no\&quot; as well. It\&#039;s a basic right not to be subject to arbitrary searches.\r\n\r\nIt\&#039;s one thing to break a *law*. It\&#039;s another to violate a right.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to go with &#8220;no&#8221; as well. It&#8217;s a basic right not to be subject to arbitrary searches.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s one thing to break a *law*. It&#8217;s another to violate a right.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138935','SUZANNE'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138935','SUZANNE','I\'m going to go with \&quot;no\&quot; as well. It\'s a basic right not to be subject to arbitrary searches.\r\n\r\nIt\'s one thing to break a *law*. It\'s another to violate a right.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: doug newton</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138934</link>
		<dc:creator>doug newton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138934</guid>
		<description>Sorry, my previous remark was just in answer to your opening paragraph.

Your main question is tougher to answer.
I am inclined to say no as well on principle,  but if it is really that clear cut you have to wonder why we are still arguing about it. 
I appreciate that it can be a tough call for a cop with a suspicion that a serious crime is  being committed, perhaps by someone that is &quot;known to police&quot; for other criminal activities.
So as a law abiding citizen, all be it in a stretchy kind of way, I have to figure that in my own best interests I would prefer the cop to intervene if the supposed crime was indeed serious but a breach of charter rights was necessary to prevent it. Not a dope bust that&#039;s going to be thrown out of court but a violent crime of some sort. 
If there was a violent crime being committed then we hope it would have been prevented by the officer&#039;s actions even though the criminal charges might be dismissed later.
I wonder how many times a citizen&#039;s charter rights are breached and no incriminating evidence is found? How much of a problem is it in fact? 
Where do RIDE programs figure into this?&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;138934&#039;,&#039;doug newton&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;138934&#039;,&#039;doug newton&#039;,&#039;Sorry, my previous remark was just in answer to your opening paragraph.\n\nYour main question is tougher to answer.\nI am inclined to say no as well on principle,  but if it is really that clear cut you have to wonder why we are still arguing about it. \nI appreciate that it can be a tough call for a cop with a suspicion that a serious crime is  being committed, perhaps by someone that is \&quot;known to police\&quot; for other criminal activities.\nSo as a law abiding citizen, all be it in a stretchy kind of way, I have to figure that in my own best interests I would prefer the cop to intervene if the supposed crime was indeed serious but a breach of charter rights was necessary to prevent it. Not a dope bust that\&#039;s going to be thrown out of court but a violent crime of some sort. \nIf there was a violent crime being committed then we hope it would have been prevented by the officer\&#039;s actions even though the criminal charges might be dismissed later.\nI wonder how many times a citizen\&#039;s charter rights are breached and no incriminating evidence is found? How much of a problem is it in fact? \nWhere do RIDE programs figure into this?&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, my previous remark was just in answer to your opening paragraph.</p>
<p>Your main question is tougher to answer.<br />
I am inclined to say no as well on principle,  but if it is really that clear cut you have to wonder why we are still arguing about it.<br />
I appreciate that it can be a tough call for a cop with a suspicion that a serious crime is  being committed, perhaps by someone that is &#8220;known to police&#8221; for other criminal activities.<br />
So as a law abiding citizen, all be it in a stretchy kind of way, I have to figure that in my own best interests I would prefer the cop to intervene if the supposed crime was indeed serious but a breach of charter rights was necessary to prevent it. Not a dope bust that&#8217;s going to be thrown out of court but a violent crime of some sort.<br />
If there was a violent crime being committed then we hope it would have been prevented by the officer&#8217;s actions even though the criminal charges might be dismissed later.<br />
I wonder how many times a citizen&#8217;s charter rights are breached and no incriminating evidence is found? How much of a problem is it in fact?<br />
Where do RIDE programs figure into this?
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138934','doug newton'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138934','doug newton','Sorry, my previous remark was just in answer to your opening paragraph.\n\nYour main question is tougher to answer.\nI am inclined to say no as well on principle,  but if it is really that clear cut you have to wonder why we are still arguing about it. \nI appreciate that it can be a tough call for a cop with a suspicion that a serious crime is  being committed, perhaps by someone that is \&quot;known to police\&quot; for other criminal activities.\nSo as a law abiding citizen, all be it in a stretchy kind of way, I have to figure that in my own best interests I would prefer the cop to intervene if the supposed crime was indeed serious but a breach of charter rights was necessary to prevent it. Not a dope bust that\'s going to be thrown out of court but a violent crime of some sort. \nIf there was a violent crime being committed then we hope it would have been prevented by the officer\'s actions even though the criminal charges might be dismissed later.\nI wonder how many times a citizen\'s charter rights are breached and no incriminating evidence is found? How much of a problem is it in fact? \nWhere do RIDE programs figure into this?'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: doug newton</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138932</link>
		<dc:creator>doug newton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 03:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138932</guid>
		<description>I prefer to think of it as stretching. Not broken as such but rather tested.
Kind of a civic service.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;138932&#039;,&#039;doug newton&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;138932&#039;,&#039;doug newton&#039;,&#039;I prefer to think of it as stretching. Not broken as such but rather tested.\nKind of a civic service.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I prefer to think of it as stretching. Not broken as such but rather tested.<br />
Kind of a civic service.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138932','doug newton'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138932','doug newton','I prefer to think of it as stretching. Not broken as such but rather tested.\nKind of a civic service.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Canuckguy</title>
		<link>http://www.stageleft.info/2008/12/12/how-much-law-breaken-is-too-much-law-breaken/comment-page-1/#comment-138931</link>
		<dc:creator>Canuckguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 03:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stageleft.info/?p=5048#comment-138931</guid>
		<description>Bet you are just worried that an &#039;unreasonable&#039; search will find a load of grass in your bike&#039;s saddlebags.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;138931&#039;,&#039;Canuckguy&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;138931&#039;,&#039;Canuckguy&#039;,&#039;Bet you are just worried that an \&#039;unreasonable\&#039; search will find a load of grass in your bike\&#039;s saddlebags.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bet you are just worried that an &#8216;unreasonable&#8217; search will find a load of grass in your bike&#8217;s saddlebags.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('138931','Canuckguy'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('138931','Canuckguy','Bet you are just worried that an \'unreasonable\' search will find a load of grass in your bike\'s saddlebags.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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