Just Where Does One Begin With Such Stupidity?
Jacks Newswatch has a post by My Left Nut under his “Daily Blogger” category, initially I wondered why someone would choose to highlight such obvious stupidity but then it struck me that it should be shown the light of day – in as many places as possible – so that it, and it’s author, can be the recipients of the mocking and ridicule they so richly deserve.
I was particularly taken with Left Nuts
I hope you want to come to Canada to have freedom and opportunities that you did not have in the country in which you were born. I was born here and I have no desire to have your values and ideas imposed on me….
Does this idiot not realize that,as I noted at Jacks
Within my (not yet long by any stretch of the imagination) lifetime our culture was forcing (often quite violently) its’ culture, its’ language, its’ traditions, its’ beliefs, its’ values, and its’ lifestyle, on people who were here long before we came to the startling conclusion that we wouldn’t fall off the edge of the earth if we sailed too far west — and yet this arrogant left nut (very appropriate name by the way) has the gonads to tell others what they should or should not do when they get here?
It’s not only the fact that people like Left Nutter, and those who agree with those sorts of ideas, can vote that scares me…. it’s the fact that they have access to sharp objects.
Careful, you’re in dangerous Canadian Cynic territory for calling people stupid in every post.
I think that Left Nutter was a tad long-winded about things, but he genuinely strikes upon some important and true statements. Canadians do, in fact, fear losing their culture to the continued heavy influx of immigrants. I know I certainly don’t want to live in a foreign country. I want to live in Canada. And yet every day Canada looks less like it’s supposed to be.
“Canadians do, in fact, fear losing their culture to the continued heavy influx of immigrants.”
Raphael and some other Canadians may so fear. Balbulican and some other Canadians don’t. Please identify your biases as your own, and don’t presume to speak on my behalf.
“I know I certainly don’t want to live in a foreign country.”
Then stay here. But adjust to the fact that the country’s demographic makeup is changing.
“I want to live in Canada. And yet every day Canada looks less like it’s supposed to be. ”
I love that “like it’s supposed to be”. I assume you refer to a special, Raphael-approved blend of ethnicities, carefully mixed to provide just the right counterpoint of ethnic restaurants, but not to actually have any impact on the ratios that you, personally, feel make up Canada “like it’s supposed to be”?
Careful, you’re in dangerous Canadian Cynic territory for calling people stupid in every post.
Welcome to the dark side, Balby! It’s a terrible, snark-filled place filled with much pointing and mocking and calling people “stupid” when they say, you know, stupid things.
Hahaha!
I take great pleasure in pointing out the irony (or hypocrisy) of non-aboriginal Canadians ranting about immigrants in my classes. They all use the same tact – immigrants are changing OUR culture. Usually when I let loose that’s the end of the discussion, but more likely because they don’t want to “marginalize” me in class than because they may have learned something.
Obama’s recent victory south of the border had me and a friend discussing the likelihood of a non-white Canadian becoming Prime Minister – we both found it doubtful any time in the near future. For a country that prides itself on being progressive and accepting of other races and cultures, every Canadian should ask themselves if they honestly think the same thing could happen up here. And if not, they why not?
Lulu came from CC’s place to play
Thought she was La Shaidle for a day
Spiky Boots and a load of snark
Teasin’ Raphael for a lark, she said
Hey, Balb…take a walk on the dark side…
I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em Raphael… and my patience level with bigoted, uninformed, ignorance, and/or stupidity, is getting more and more strained with every passing day.
Awh, are you looking for sympathy for a loss you think you have, or think you are, suffering Raphael — how about I point you towards some people who are very close to me who had their language, beliefs, traditions, and homes ripped away from them to make your Canada…. you can lament your loss with them and see where it takes ya.
balb,
I don’t understand how you can’t be appalled at the way demography is changing overnight. Immigration is one thing. This is a tsunami.
throbbin,
Why do you care about the ethnicity of the PM? Would a black PM who is conservative be any more palatable to you lefties than a white one?
stageleft,
I know you have a kind of aboriginal bias on this blog, but come on. The natives in Canada were a primitive and culturally stagnant people who were naturally supplanted by the more advanced Europeans. During that time in history, we didn’t have the notions of equality we hold today. They were conquered, like thousands of other cultures before them in history.
It’s time to move on.
“I don’t understand how you can’t be appalled at the way demography is changing overnight.”
Yes, I know you have a difficult time understanding how other people fail to see your view. Probably why you’re finding it so hard to cope with the changing face of Canada. Fortunately, that’s your problem – not mine, not Canada’s.
‘The natives in Canada were a primitive and culturally stagnant people who were naturally supplanted by the more advanced Europeans.”
Sigh. Like Werner Patels, Raphael occasionally decides to say something astonishingly ignorant to stir up discussion. I think he believes he’s being “daring”, or “outrageous”.
Raph – two requests.
1) PLEASE read something more substantive than Margaret Wente or Frances Widdowson or Tom Flanagan on Aboriginal history before you humiliate yourself publicly again with your appalling ignorance. I suggest the four volume History of Native People In Canada I proposed earlier.
2) Please go troll somewhere else. You’re welcome to contribute to and participate in discussions here – but please pay us the courtesy of not trying quite so obviously to pick a fight. Okay? Thanks.
Shorter “Raphael” (if that’s really your name): Eeeeek! Teh swarthy people are coming!
P.S. Your little tune is beyond awesome, Balby
Yes, Raphael is my real name. Is Lulu yours?
As most munificent balb perhaps intimates, I suggest immigration levels be determined by aborigional Canadians. There is a flavour of folks quite chagrined by the stark reflective glare of the skins of most Canadians who say “we” have no right to control the rate of immigration into this country because “we” went and took it from the aborigionals. Well alright – don’t say “we” abrogate any claim “we” have on the land, say “we” return that right to the people “we” took it from. I noticed this in a video Chris Spoke did on his blog a while back. It was a protest about immigration and a woman he talked to said both that aborigionals probably wished that we hadn’t and so we were tainted by this and had no right to tell other people not to come.
Who is this we? It’s not Canadians because it excludes aborigionals, who are. That must make it white people. Is that our frame of reference? It isn’t mine. Canada would lose it’s character if immigration was largely closed. But Canada could lose it’s character if immigration is unlimited. I recently did some shovel consulting in a new Edmonton neighborhood. I saw southeast asian and arab kids playing soccer in the streets. The busy playground was a perfect multicultural ad. This is Canada – this is a country where different racial and cultural groups left centuries of bitterness behind them to build a new home where we are all Canadians. I also saw words scratched into a fence: “Jews Jews Jewish Jews” “e=mc2″ “Jamal is back. Browntown”.
This is not Canada – but it could be.
@Raphael Alexander – Why do I care about the ethnicity of a PM? To be honest, I don’t. What I do care about are the social and political conditions in a country that I think could not bring itself to support and elect a “coloured” citizen to the highest office in the land (GG is appointed).
“They were conquered, like thousands of other cultures before them in history.”
Really? I have never heard of armies surpassing the treeline to conquer my people. In fact, I have rarely read or heard of any First Nations group being “conquered” either. I think it gives Urks a twisted sense of cultural or racial accomplishment to suggest they “conquered” aboriginals in Canada.
@da wolfe – “Who is this we?”
I would suggest that the “we” being referred to is not simply white Canadians, but any Canadian who opposes immigration, conveniently forgetting the fact that unless they are aboriginal, their stock immigrated here too. To be honest though, I don’t see too many Indians, Chinese, Chileans, or Botswanians (Botswani?) complaining about immigration in to Canada.
Great tune, balb. Now Lou Reed has occupied my head. “La Shaidle for a day.” Heh.
@Raphael Alexander – Ya know what Raphael, that “aboriginal bias” comment is what sets people like you, and people like me, in whole different categories of people… and I will make the appropriate offerings to those who are that that is the case.
My bias is towards fairness and tolerance and actually knowing what I’m talking about – your bias is “make Raphael happy“.
Does the word bullshit mean anything to you Raphael? Jesus Christ already….. “primitive and culturally stagnant” – your complete and total ignorance is only over shadowed by your utter arrogance.
There was a different culture here, and a bunch of arrogant immigrants forced their culture (quite violently) upon that culture.
History? Like when ancient f*ckers like me were kids ‘eh?
No aboriginal groups in Canada were ever conquered – where did you go to school Raphael?
I would suggest that you are going to become more and more unhappy with the state of Canadian multicultural affairs as time goes on – it’s probably gonna suck to become more and more bitter, but there ya go, we all make our own beds don’t we?
What tsunami? Where is this fucking tsunami that I keep hearing about?
*sigh* – same old same old from Raphael, and the same (sane and accurate) responses to his same old ‘Oh noeeees! immigration from all the ‘wrong’ countries/teh swarthy peeples are taking over’ plaint.
Which leads me to wonder why Raph seems to expect he’ll get a different response when he comments as such on blogs and sites such as this.
What’s one definition of insanity again?
ps – Raph. I’ve actually met LuLu in person. Yeah, Lulu is pretty much her real name. However, neither Frank, Frink or ‘Dr.’ bear an relation to reality in my case. Just thought you should know that
Frink, I thought you got your PhD recently?
Stage,
I’m sure your culture is interesting and impressive in it’s own way. It just doesn’t hold a matchstick to western civ. Now you can all go about for the next 500 years resisting the inevitable, or you can voluntarily join the first world and come in for the big win. It’s really your choice.
Anyway, I’ve said my piece. Next topic….
Umm…Raphael…are you under the impression that Stageleft is Aboriginal? Oh, my. You certainly ARE the perceptive and informed chap, aren’t you…
Tell you what, Raph. You’re obviously a guy who’s thought about this native thing a great deal, and you obviouly have access to scholarship that the rest of us have never read. Either that, or you just a common or garden variety troll who’s actually proud of his utter ignorance.
But I’ll assume the former, in kindness. So tell me – which of the basic works on Aboriginal history have you read?
@Throbbin – I mean to say that the woman, and many people who react so strongly against the notion that “we” have a right to control immigration, is for immigration because she feels embarrassed at the reflectiveness of the average Canadian.
Between people who blindly support immigration because they think “we” – apparently meaning white folks – have no right to keep anyone out because we came in relatively recently and people who blindly oppose immigration because immigrants are often relatively less reflective, I choose neither. It is a racially exclusive frame of reference either way.
@Raphael Alexander – If you say so, Raph. Of course, we only have your word to go on …
I like to think all cultures have their merits Raphael – it’s another one of those things that makes us so very different.
I look at other cultures and see other people that I can learn from and enjoy, you apparently look at other cultures and see something inferior – it’s a telling view of the world, you really should look at history, there’s a lot of really (really) bad things that have come from that sort of thinking.
BTW, that is mighty white of you, Raph. I’m sure you’re an ignorant, mouthbreathing xenophobe … in your own way.
Ah yes, Raph. The same hallowed western civilization that also ethnically cleansed my (equally formerly from continental European ‘western civilized’) ancestors in 1755 and 1758, if those two dates bring any immediate recognization.
So, you know, it wasn’t only aboriginals or other darker skinned peeples who have felt the the dear, sweet touch of the ’superior’ western civilization.
Geez, but you’re incredibly smug and ignorant. tell me, is that part of the entitlement of our shared (how I hate to even admit we share anything) history of western ‘civilization’?
um raphael, your white sheet slipped and folks can see your true colour, bigot pink.
What’s really funny about all this is that Raphael has drawn his most recent pensée on the topic from that noted expert in Aboriginal history, Margaret Wente.
Except Margaret Wente drew it from Frances Widdowson.
Now, Frances Widdowson is a rather well known and widely mocked figure in the North because of a stint as a failed bureaucrat in Yellowknife, when she finally quit in a snit because she claimed that having to consider TEK in data analysis constituted a violation of her rights under the Charter. (Great hilarity ensued). However, both Stageleft and I came to know her rather well. She used to hang out on Stageleft’s famous “Political Discussion Forum, an online resource that became notorious across the north for no-holds-barred, rip-roaring discussion, excellent gossip, and the inside story on EVERYTHING that was going on with the GNWT and GN.
Widdowson was a regular, and, I am delighted say, regularly got her ass handed to her for her astonishingly ignorant observations. She initially claimed to speak on the topic of TEK as a “scientist” – turned out she was doing a master’s in sociology. She is now teaches at a college in Calgary.
She’s about to release yet another book, and is, I assume, trying to attract a bit of attention to herself.
Widdowson to Wente to Raphael – the grand circle of ignorance spins on…
Do try to keep up here, Raph. I got one of those fancy shmancy mail-order ‘docterates’ just like ‘Dr.’ McVety. Mine’s from Farmer’s Union of Central Kentucky University.
I think it’s safe to say, based on Raphael’s earlier comments, that he is a cultural supremacist, his comments on the original nutters blog (yes, I went to check to see if any of the discussion here, or elsewhere, had spilled over into that dark little den) indicate there may be more to it.
It would appear that there is also a bit of a different type of supremacist in the make up.
I think, Raphael, that you could do worse than read “A Handbook of the Scottish Gaelic World” by Michael Newton – you see, the English did the same in Scotland as they did in North America. That being to violently force their culture, language, and traditions on the people they found, your comments should probably read.
Ah, Raph’s old ‘multi-generational immigrant (settled 1854)’ shtick, which gets the same response it always gets from me.
Which is: I am also a ‘multi-generational immigrant’. My family arrived… err. settled here circa 1650. By that reckoning I should be 200 years more stupidly ignorant and entitled. Ah, but then we were in exile for 30-35 years – reference ethnic cleansing in my comment above
“They were conquered, like thousands of other cultures before them in history.”
and now it’s your turn, honky.
KEvron
So here is a singular question to you Ralp kickers:
What is your stance on the attempt to have Sharia law recognized in Ontario?
Speak for yourself, Raphael. You do not speak for me.
This country’s demographics have changed dramatically before, and they will do so again. Let’s stop whining about it and instead focus on living our own lives, rather than shoving our noses in the lives of our neighbours.
I have to say that I’m really irked at the ignorance you’ve shown here. It’s an insult to my heritage as a third generation Chinese Canadian, and it’s an insult to my wife as an immigrant from the United States. We are just as Canadian as you are, and we don’t have to think or act like you to accomplish that.
I can answer for balbulican. He supports it, and also think muezzins and prayer call at 5am are “music” to his ears. He also thinks the curtains that the third world Islamic cattle wear is a “personal choice”, and that they should have the right to bring burqas wherever they like.
James,
We have a choice in what we do and what we accept. It’s your opinion we need more immigrants. I think we don’t. I don’t see how that’s an insult to you or your wife, nor how it applies to your personal situation.
At the very least we should reduce inflow so that Canadians are not outnumbered so drastically in urban centres. One certainly feels like an immigrant being a Canadian-born citizen now. Perhaps it’s not so in Kitchener, but I can assure you it is like that in Toronto and Vancouver.
I am against any sort of religious theology polluting public life or law – is that clear enough for you?
Ummm… Raph, I live in Vancouver. Have for 31 years now (Montreal for 20 years previous). I’ve never felt anything but Canadian…. errr… felt threatened.
Again, as a 14th-generation ‘white’ Canadian, albeit French-Canadian/Acadien (who may or not actually be ‘white’ enough depending on one’s perspective), speak for yourself.
“muezzins and prayer call at 5am are ‘music’ to his ears.”
careful, ralphie; your ugly canadian is showing.
KEvron
“I can answer for balbulican.”
and, unwittingly, you’ve answered, albeit obliquely, for yourself.
KEvron
So, Raphael, you feel upset that you feel yourself to be a “minority” in your “own” country. A country that you identified as a “Scottish-European country”. The problem with this assumption is that you’re basically claiming a land that you have little right to — or, at least, as much right to claim as anybody else. After all, we’re all immigrants here. Even the aboriginal peoples came to this country across the Bering Strait. They just happened to arrive first.
Your ancestors came to this country and dramatically changed the demographics of the land, and the natives had very little recourse but to swallow this change that was thrust upon them. Now you claim some sort of right to maintain your status quo. That doesn’t meet the basic principles of fairness here. How about the Chinese Canadians who helped build the railway, don’t they get a turn? How about the Ukrainian Canadians who helped open up the West? Don’t they get a turn? What about the Canadians from the Middle East who are, right now at the University of Waterloo and across this country, producing some of the best new work in high tech engineering, helping to build the high tech industry that will take this country forward into the twenty-first century. Don’t they deserve a turn? The list goes on.
You are operating from a basic false premise: that your ancestry and your culture is the superior one and everybody else should conform to your values. I dispute that. You suggest that immigrants offer more cost to this country than benefit, and I certainly dispute that (and given that my wife is an immigrant, that’s where the insult gets a bit personal).
From the beginning of European settlement on this continent, there has been no one culture that you could call Canadian, it has always been a mix: French/English, Catholic/Protestant. My grandfather came to this country in 1910, and paid the $500 head tax in order to enter. Are you saying that he cost Canada more than he contributed?
I admit that, for me, this gets personal very quickly, but you have to understand that your passive-aggressive tendencies are infuriating, here. Your assumptions come across as arrogant. I do not believe myself to be better than you or anybody who chooses to live in this country, regardless of their place of birth. I do not judge individuals based on their place of birth; I judge them on their personality. It is wrong to assume someone is poorer in character because of where they came from. You have not given people like me the benefit of that doubt. Just now you have assumed that Stageleft welcomed the Islamic call to prayer at 5 a.m., on absolutely spurious evidence. As he correctly points out, he is on record as favouring the complete separation of Church and state.
There is no long-term threat, none, in welcoming decent people into this country, regardless of where in the world they came from, and there hasn’t ever been. Conflicts between various groups are probably inevitable; Lord knows they’ve happened before (just ask the Irish), but the country has grown past that and moved on. It’s time for you to do the same.
For the last time, I don’t have a problem with your American wife. At least she’s coming from a culture that is almost entirely identical to ours.
And I didn’t answer for stage, I answered for balb, who has ridiculously campaigned for every concession under the sun for Islam.
And finally, nobody cares about the Canadians losing their culture because people have been brainwashed into surrendering it by progressives like yourself. In the end it’s all about cultural dominance, and if we don’t act now, we’ll succumb to whichever cultural influence is strongest, whether it be Islamic, Chinese, or Indian. It’s always been that way.
I don’t hear the Chinese complaining about losing their culture. Of course they do happen to comprise one fifth the world’s population. If the Tibetans complain about losing their culture, it’s progressive. If a Canadian does, it’s racist.
So I’m a cultural chauvanist. Not a problem. The Scottish-British empire that built North America is responsible for what it is today. If people want to dilute it by inviting every third world applicant available, go right ahead. Don’t come crying to me when you turn Canada into what you bring in. You are what you eat.
@James Bow – Bravo, James — elegantly smote.
What’s Canadian culture? Define “it.”
Good grief, what’s the use. What an anthropological illiterate.
@Raphael Alexander – My God, you’re a precious cretin.
Why don’t you run along to Stormfront and see what the rest of your kkkrazy white supremacist compatriots are up to, hmmmm?
hi ralphie! as another resident of k-w i can assure you we have a rich and diverse population. why right across from my building i can go and grab some fabulous breads and top notch spices from the convenience store run by an afghan family that all work harder than i ever want to. stroll a little further and i can grab some really superb ethiopian food. swing around the corner and there’s a jamaican place that does an excellent jerk. i don’t care for japanese food but that’s right across the street next to the mediterranean restaurant. to be perfectly honest, the diversity and depth of cultural influx does nothing but make my neighbourhood better more interesting and more cosmopolitan.
i feel so sorry for you raph. it must be terrifying and lonely to live in a changing world that refuses to conform to your prejudices. tough luck there bigot boy.
I guess it’s easier if you’ve been brainwashed by liberals. Where can I contact your parents and teachers and report for “reeducation”?
@Dr.Dawg – Hmmm… somehow I suspect it translates as Scottish-British. I’m almost certain it doesn’t include me.
But I have had the same sort of attitude expressed to her that you have expressed to other immigrants. “You can’t be Canadian and American, Erin, they’re opposites.” It’s wrong when such prejudice is applied to her, and it’s wrong when it’s applied to anybody else. You will always be wrong as long as you fail to see every individual as just that: an individual, whose contribution to this country should be valued on his or her work alone, and not on the country from which he came.
And don’t you tell me that I’ve been brainwashed into not valuing Canadian culture. Canadian culture is celebrated every day of the year, from the Ukrainian Canadians who remember their contributions to the West, and their struggles from World War I and going forward, to the Chinese who helped build the railroad, to the Scots and the Irish and the French who were at the core of this country’s establishment of responsible government. Canadian culture is and has always been a quilt which is more than the sum of its parts. Our multicultural heritage is not just something that was imposed upon us by Trudeau, it’s a reality that has existed since this country was founded on three distinct peoples. We are better because of it, and so is the world.
For instance, did you know Ukrainian-Canadians like author Marsha Skrypuch are helping the country of the Ukraine re-establish its national identity? This Ukrainian-Canadian author has worked with a Canadian publisher to commission short stories and memoirs from Ukrainian-Canadians across this land to tell their stories, and this book has been widely distributed across the Ukraine, with the support of the Ukrainian government. The stories of the Ukrainians in Ukraine are largely forgotten, because of the efforts of Stalin and other Russian communists to stamp it out. The book is called Kobzar’s Children, and you can purchase it off of Amazon.ca.
**That’s** what Canadian multiculturalism has to offer the world. And you would have these individuals forget their heritage, forget their language, and assimilate.
“Don’t come crying to me when you turn Canada into what you bring in.”
thanks for the passive aggressive warning. i’ll file under “wake up, white people!”….
KEvron
Let’s just call a spade a spade here. Raphael is a racist. He’s against anyone but white people showing up at Canada’s doorstep because he feels they are inherently inferior.
Racism: Belief in inherent differences in race, and believing that one’s race is superior to others.
He may mask “race” with “culture” but it’s a flimsy cover. And a stupid one at that.
So very many people think immigration should stop the day after they get here.
Weird.
And yet every day Canada looks less like it’s supposed to be.
You mean like the hardy, self-reliant Canada of our forefathers? The one with lots of immigrants? Sign me up.
I already see the culture has been irrevocably lost in some larger cities where immigrants dominate Canadians on a 20-1 ratio.
Sounds a bit like lower East Side Manhatten for much of the 20th century. What a disaster that proved to be, eh?
RA, since time immemorial people have argued like you about the Catholics, the Jews, southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans, the Chinese, the Japanese, Germans, East Asians, etc., etc., etc. They were wrong every time and so are you. As for the argument that it is all different today because of social services, why don’t you do a little hands-on research? Check out the homeless shelters, child protection courts, legal aid waiting rooms, etc. Try to spot the immigrants. I know, me neither. Are you under the impression all those young folks in the beer parlors who survive on pogey between odd jobs for much of the year are immigrants?
Raphael was asked to tell where he learned about the “Conquering” of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada.
Isn’t it obvious?
He’s watched too many John Wayne movies on American TeeVee. That’s how he knows it’s true.
A few general comments.
Having elicited some unusually eloquent and moderate responses to his demonstration of (apparently quite authentic) ignorance, Raph first scrambles to regain his self-proclaimed position of conservative moderate, then lapses into the peevish xenophobia and trollism (sorry, Raph, “cultural chauvinist” is MUCH too self-flattering) that represents his real attitudes. Sorry, bud – you blew it. And fairly publicly this time. Folks – remember this thread, and cite it when Raph attempts to play the reasonable man again.
Like any ideologue, his view is based on fear (which, thankfully, he acknowledges himself), ignorance (which he demonstrates), and ego (which he asserts), and defended with a kind of petulant rage when threatened.
“I can answer for balbulican.”
Well, no, dude, you can’t. I’m afraid you’re a few light years away from understanding pretty much anything that I think, except that I hope my level of esteem for you (personally and intellectually) is clear. If not, do go on, and I’ll endeavour to make it clearer.
[...] that in mind when reading his posts and comments…. Canadians do, in fact, fear losing their culture to the continued heavy influx of immigrants. I [...]
Wow.
Just to add to what others have said here, Raph, you seem to be missing one other thing – cultural change is a two way street. While immigrants may change our culture, we also change them.
Take your dislike for Muslims. Most Muslims that come here do so in order to escape the deprivations, oppression and wars in places like Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. They come here for the economic opportunities AND the political freedom that is a hallmark of Western Society. Don’t fool yourself, most Muslims on the streets of Cairo and Damascus are as moderate as most Canadians, only they have been subjected to highly dictatorial regimes and have sought solace anywhere they can find it. Some escape to our country and some turn to radical Islam as the answer.
So what happens when we start restricting Muslims freedoms here – Muslims who came here to escape oppression? Toronto 17 – an angry turn to “radical Islam”, albeit one fostered by RCMP entrapment and highly unlikely to progress past the paintball stage.
The best way to encourage moderate Muslims and to change their culture toward freedom is to have them absorb those values from our culture, by living with us and peacefully trading. The same goes for every culture.
Indeed, immigration may be the solution, not the problem.
by living with us and peacefully trading
Mike, sometimes you libertarians are just too cute.
@Raphael Alexander –
I assume you mean that Canada is no longer looking like 100% Native population? Because that’s what it *was*, and I imagine what it is “supposed” to be [whatever *that* means...]
If you mean that Canada is supposed to “look” like a *White* nation [G_d I almost gag just writing that... shudder], well sorry, but welcome to the 21st century, bub….
Don’t have much to add to all the comments here except this: insofar as the First Nations suffered “defeat” at all, the main weapon used against them was disease brought over by Europeans who happened to have livestock that people in North America didn’t have. There’s nothing particularly superior about that, just a fluke that favoured the Europeans for a while. Additionally, imagine that a large immigrant group today was bringing in a disease that decimated the local population, and think how that group would be regarded. The “superiority” narrative doesn’t really make sense at all when you look at it at arm’s length.
Well Raphael certainly stirred up a hornet’s nest here.
I know that it’s quite hard to change a racist’s mind so let me talk in terms of dollars and cents. As a recent immigrant I pumped thousands of dollars into the economy by buying a house, cars, furniture and a specialised education (for my spouse). I took on numerous debts which I have to service every month. All this translates into jobs for the immigrants and morons like you, Raphael.
I work in a mid sized company in a position that took them 6 months to fill because they could not find the required skills among the resumes they had there by saving the company thousands of dollars as they were ready to sponsor someone from abroad (good god, more immigrants!!) . I participate in the economy by investing in firms in Canada and I try and buy Canadian as much as I can to help local population. Again, all this translates into jobs for the immigrants and morons like you, Raphael.
I am an economic migrant and despite the fact that the Indian economy has kicked up, I refuse to even consider leaving Canada because this country represents the values that I want my daughter to grow up having. Your value system and your principles are out of tune with what I see everyday in this country. So do us a favour and crawl back to your conservatives’ hole with your “kind”.
Immigration is a delicate issue, one that comes with benefits and problems, both of which must be discussed reasonably.
I suppose it depends on how Raphael defines “Canada”. To me, it’s always been a fiction anyway, because Canada is not a real country, without any real cohesion among provinces, etc.
We must also be careful to distinguish two things in a statement like “I don’t want to live in a foreign country”:
a) The race or colour of a person’s skin does not determine whether Canada is still Canada or not. People can be yellow, green or purple, worship one god or many, and still be Canadian in every respect of the word (whatever it means).
b) What does matter, though, is that the country remain functional (for what it’s worth). This means that immigrants must be able to communicate in at least one of our two official languages. If you can’t speak the language of the country where you reside, you may as well be mute — it becomes a disability, which isn’t helping you or the host country. Language is our common denominator. Look at Toronto and its various ghettoes where it’s now impossible, as a “Canadian”, to order a cup of coffee without resorting to gestures and baby talk because the server on the other side of the counter doesn’t understand a word of English. This is counterproductive and, in fact, creates a lot of frustration that can lead to racism.
So, in a nutshell, let’s modify the old saying “When in Rome do as the Romans do …” to “When in Rome speak as the Romans do”. As long as we all (i.e., born and naturalized Canadians) have a common language or two in which to communicate with each other, we’ll be alright. Trouble and friction (again, such as in Toronto) is the direct result of people who can’t (or won’t) communicate with each other.
Other than that, let them be whatever they want to be — in cultural, religious or whatever terms.
The all-time favourite topic: immigration…
Blogger Raphael Alexander got himself into the hot and murky waters of the immigration debate – first, with a post on his blog, followed by comments on a leftwing blog, and then by being nailed as a closet xenophobe by Red Tory. Immigration is a delica…
so werner, how does that explain the great number of north american expats who move overseas and manage to function without learning the local language? english is certainly the international language of commerce but it is also the language of arrogant disregard. many of the immigrants that come here struggle to learn english or french but most of them do learn. i work for a young korean couple and they are often stymied by the plain strange nature of the language. still, they work like crazy to provide for their family. they own a successful small business, a house and two cars. they pay their taxes and their bills and every day their language skills improve, they aren’t alone in that either. but i have seen raphael’s kind of canadian treat them like shit, to their faces, after assuming that they were menials in their own place of business.
@Werner Patels – “This means that immigrants must be able to communicate in at least one of our two official languages.”
Really?
Several of my aboriginal relatives, along with thousands more across Nunavut, don’t speak a word of English OR French. What should be done to them? Send them back to where they came from?
I was chatting up a classmate last week from Guyana. He was telling me about the requirements for citizenship – including testing on Civics, Governance, Canadian History, and other assorted subjects.
The funny thing is, most Canadian-born citizens couldn’t answer the questions this guy had to answer to get into the country. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with immigrants being tested (and their potential citizenship relying on their knowledge of) on subjects that most Canadians couldn’t answer themselves. Some common knowledge of the country would be nice – but I guess the Raphael’s of the Immigration system are too threatened by the Guyanese equivalent’s of their local zamboni drivers.
When I encounter someone that doesn’t speak english, *I* feel ignorant and a bit helpless–and it’s absolutely not *their* fault. We both live in the world and we both are very likely just just the same, trying to get by with what we already know and with what we have yet to learn.
So I just do my best to be friendly and work something out. I can’t think of more than one or two times in my entire life I haven’t been able to accomplish what I wanted in that situation–and that still wasn’t *their* fault.
In other words, *my* frustration doesn’t lead to *my* racism, and so far as I know it hasn’t led to anyone else’s either.
Balbul: Regarding the question “What is your stance on the attempt to have Sharia law recognized in Ontario?”
Stage Left answered this bluntly. I am still curious about your stance. Your response to Raph for putting words in your mouth doesn’t clarify it for me.
If you can’t speak the language of the country where you reside, you may as well be mute — it becomes a disability, which isn’t helping you or the host country.
People have a right to be free wherever they are, and that includes the right to be mute. And, yes, Werner, that “right to be mute” includes the right not to vote.
I ignored it, Canuckguy, because it was a childish attempt at derailment, and I make it a practise not to respond to those. You wanna know what I think about Sharia in Ontario? Search the archives. Want a hint to save yourself some time? Raphael’s a liar. Does that help?
I always get a kick out of folks saying that Vancouver is “overrun” by Asian people. I kept hearing that over and over, that whites were some kind of shrinking minority in the Greater Vancouver area, and then I actually visited the place. I mean, I live where whites are an actual numerical minority. I know what it looks like, and Vancouver ain’t it by a long shot. Nor is Toronto the last few times I visited.
I’m reminded of Obama’s speech on race, where he says that it wasn’t wrong for Rev. Wright to have spoken about racial intolerance, but that it was wrong for him to have spoken as though no progress had been made. People like Raphael probably wish no progress had been made so we could keep barring the entry of folks that are ruining his lily-white vision of Canada.
The funny thing is, most Canadian-born citizens couldn’t answer the questions this guy had to answer to get into the country.
It is more sad than funny to my mind. I think a great deal of the fear people like Raphael harbour towards the “dark-skinned hordes invading our shores” stems from the unwelcome knowledge that most of these people are smarter and harder-working than they are, and without their “cultural chauvinism” to fall back on, they’d be left with the cold knowledge of their own inferiority.
What Canada looks and sounds like is irrelevant. The only meaningful issue is what Canada *acts* like.
Raphael… I have an odd, certain admiration for your willingness to state your view here and stick to it. That doesn’t make it right – a mistake that I have seen more than once on the right is to assume that a politically incorrect position must be the truth. And any feeling of admiration is dwarfed by my disgust at what is clearly more than cultural chauvanism. There are two views on immigration that I despise and they both have a racially exclusive frame of reference. Yours is that this country is supposed to “look” a certain way – not dusky. The other is that this country should look a certain way – not reflective. Yours is that Canadians of european descent are a people and have a right to preserve this country for themselves, to maintain their glory. The other is that Canadians of european descent are a people and by rights must renege this country to forget their shame. If you want to preserve Scottish-English culture in an exclusive way, go to Scotland or England. If you want to preserve a certain national hue, go to hell.
I have a book called We Are Iran, in which I learned that there are people in Iran with blue eyes. They are decendants of Polish refugees of World War II. Iran took them in – up to 300 000, most of whom moved on to other countries or to fight with the Allies. When these Poles landed on their shore, the native Persians flocked to them with food and clothing. Undoubtably, they would not have ultimately allowed these refugees to come and be their own group inside their borders and no one would fault their generosity for this. You say that this is a double standard but it is because you are wrong about Canada. This is a country which owes much to Scottish and English people and values but that is not what this country is. This is a country where people who were at eachothers throats through history live and work as Canadians. This is a country founded on three peoples. This is a cosmopolitan nationality where Johnny, and Jean, and Hani, Canuck fight in Afghanistan as much for Afgani freedom as our security. A country where I grew up in a small town in Saskatchewan knowing our history not as what “we” did or what happened to “them”, but in which the Riel rebellion was mine and the injustices done to aborigionals are mine no more or less than a raid on a european settler was mine. A country in which I am sometimes more proud that Hutterites are free to live their own lives by their own values than of anything else.
I believe this and yet I do not believe that we, as Canadians, have no right or say in this nation’s values. If immigration from some cultures means this country’s equal treatment of women is weakened I have no tolerance for it. If immigration from some cultures threatens our tolerance of gays I have no tolerance for it. But I look at a newspaper clip I have about a woman who plays a Muslim character in Little Mosque on the Prairie – about how she portrays feminist themes… and about how her parents are so proud she plays a character who can look beautiful without being half naked and I think – we’ll be just fine, and better than fine.
Attention Balbul: “It’s a hell of a lot simpler to avoid voting for any MP – Catholic or Muslim – who states prior to an election that that they place the orders of the Vatican or their Imam above the will of their electorate”
Well I did a search, “Sharia Law”, not much to be found other than the above statement you made. Does not answer my question. So why don’t you just make things easy and less time consuming for me and just answer the question I asked? Why can’t you just be direct like Stageleft. He had no qualms about responding to “a childish attempt at derailment” I want to know where you stand. say it direct, no smoke screens, never mind the ‘hints’.
ah, the old “i demand you answer my ridiculous question” troll….
KEvron
[...] a Raphael nor a Stageleft be… Immigration is a hot topic over at stageleft. I might actually write this blog at about the same time as I actually clean my place – don’t [...]
Thanks, Kevron. You got it.
Sorry, Canuckguy. I won’t play. You want me address you with respectful directness? Pfft. Earn it by contributing something meaningful to the discussion.
By the way, if you can’t figure out what I believe from the statement you cited…you belong back at Scenty’s.
I’m sure you (at least) think you’re making a point Canuckguy – could it be related to the GWB theology of life?
IOW, them pesky dark skinned non believing foreigners want bad things, we want to do the same things they want to do, but our wanting is not a bad thing, because we’re the good guys.
– am I close?
Balbul, you are wiggling like the worm trying to avoid the hook.
So what are you, worm and/or politically correct barking dog leftist?
Meaningful enough for you?
Or maybe Balbul, you are just a grumpy old man.
Childish enough for you?
have you tried stamping your foot, canuckguy?
KEvron
“Childish enough for you? ”
Yup, that’s certainly childish enough for me. Childish enough for everyone else here too, I imagine.
I think Canuckguy is trying to say something like this – “Say what you want about the tenets of __________; at least it’s an ethos!”
I guess Raph answered for you after all, Balbul.
Matter settled. Case closed.
“I guess Raph answered for you after all”
i guess you’re a jackass. odds on which of us guessed closer?
KEvron
“Childish enough for everyone else here too, I imagine.”
i could stand to watch him sink a little lower.
KEvron
Not his fault, Kevron. He thinks he’s at Scenty’s – he’s still learning how to deal with the grownups.
[...] More astounding ignorance here. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)What If McCain Loses?ConservatismMissing the [...]
Gosh, the sheer arrogance here is amazing.
God forbid anybody should not agree with you.
“God forbid anybody should not agree with you.”
you want a band-aid for that booboo?
KEvron
Attention: KEvron:
–I finally got around and checked you out.
–I was able to conclude that you are a puffed up idiot.
but you have heard of me.
KEvron
A good response StageLeft – I could barely get through the original post without gagging.
Oh Canada! My home’s on native land (and this idiot’s too)….