STILL Lyin’ for Jesus
I quite enjoyed my visit the other day to “The Way the Ball Bounces“, described here. The writer, one Richard K. Ball, appears to be a well-spoken and generally good natured chap (which you would have to be, saddled with a name like Dick Ball); and his site is an encyclopedia of the errors by which believers in any god, from Christ to Krishna, keep their faith alive.
I couldn’t resist returning to his list of “Evidence for the Existence of God” one more time when I read the following:
16. Miracles. Numerous recorded in the pages of the Bible. Numerous attested to by Christians over the centuries and in the present day. The current revival in Lakeland Florida appears to be a download of miracles from God. Miracles are evidence.
You see my dilemma? There’s more bad thinking in here than one can shake a extra large stick at.
One could note that citing references from a collection of tribal myths as evidence of the literal truth of that collection of tribal myths is a bit circuitous.
One could point out that if anecdotal evidence of miracles is acceptable as “evidence”, then we have “evidence” of a number of apparently incompatible spiritual systems all at work within the same universe, with Hindu, Christian and Muslim deities periodically suspending the normal operation of physical law on their behalf of their respective adherents.
However, let’s confine ourselves to the final observation regarding the “current revival in Lakeland Florida”, which, according to Richard, “appears to be a download of miracles from God”.
If there’s a download of miracles from God going on, I certainly want to know about it. So I searched a bit, to figure out what the heck was going on in Lakeland, Florida. I assume Richard was talking about this, a ” A Mighty Third Wave Revn Lakeland Florida… which is poised to sweep the entire earth. Leading the charge is Power Evangelist Todd Bentley… miracles, healings, salvations, signs and wonders are being seen night after night.” A quick google will bring you to dozens of very excited Christian sites describing the “outpouring” of miracles, channelled by God through one Todd Bentley.
Mr. Bentley, according to himself, is a former alcoholic, drug addict who was delivered from a lifestyle involving criminal activity, youth prisons, ,drugs sex, satanic music and bondage by Jesus. He now earns his living by claiming to curing cancer, blindness and various crippling diseases in the name of the Lord. Some of his adherents are claiming he has raised the dead.
Miracles are of great interest to me, for a number of reasons. The biggest reason is obvious: if there is a supernatural entity that periodically steps in and suspends the rules It established for the operation of the universe if asked nicely or frequently enough by Its fans, I want to know about it.
So I like to dig a bit when I read about guys in Florida curing cancer at prayer meetings. Whenever I’ve dug into that stuff before, I end up in James Randi country, reading about deluded folks or rip-off artists who carefully avoid any serious medical scrutiny of their “miracles” and prey on the desperate. Curiously, the prevalence of healing “miracles” increases exponentially in the absence of critical, informed media coverage.
Even in North America, media coverage tends to skewed by several factors.
a) A non-miracle is not much of story. “Old Blind Guy Pressured By Mass Hysteria To Claim He Thinks He Sees Something Dimly Moving While Onstage With Fake Healer” is not nearly as cool as “Blind Man Recovers Sight!!”
b) The EVENT gets the coverage, not subsequent investigation and rebuttal. When claiming that a real world, miraculous cure has occurred, what matters is medical confirmation, not the assertion of the “cured” onstage, or the claims of the miracle working pastor. And actual confirmation takes longer, is usually NOT obtained, and almost inevitably wrecks the story (see “a”).
c) The notion of journalistic “balance” works against accuracy in this case. Reporters covering these “miracles” have to tell both “sides”. The healer claims a miracle, the doctor says no. Both “sides” are given equal weight, and usually equal ink. Which is absurd: when claiming that the laws of nature have suddenly been suspended, surely there’s more onus on the person calling “Miracle” than on the person calling “fraud”?
d) A negative finding in the case of a claimed miracle can never really be “proved”. Okay, his blindness wasn’t actually “cured” – but he says he now thinks he can detect a little more grayness. Okay, the cancer didn’t really go away, but she says the pain is a lot less, at least on the good days, sometimes. Okay, every credible examination of the shroud of Turin confirms that it’s a medieval artifact – but hey, maybe that’s all part of God’s design, to test our faith! You cannot prove a negative.
e) A certain percentage of all illnesses go into remission for reasons we don’t yet understand. A certain percentage of those remissions will occur among people with strong religious beliefs (as well as to atheists). Those who believe in divine miracles will attribute their cure to supernatural forces.
In the case of the Lakeland “miracles”, or any miracles, the test is fairly simple. Is reliable, independent medical assessment of the cures available?
Bentley claims hundreds of people have been healed of everything from deafness to infertility to cancer. This is a testable assertion about physical events in the real world. It is susceptible to proof. Unfortunately, and predictably, Mr. Bentley has declined to make that information available. He’s not interested in what the “scientists” say – he’s just doin’ God’s work. He also cites “privacy” concerns. That seems an odd argument when one considers that this evidence would provide proof of what is surely the most important news conceivable on the planet – and that God Itself seems to have no objection.
Bottom line:
- Mr. Bentley is following the pattern of every other sleazebag ripoff artist mock faith healer ever exposed.
- All this information is available for anyone with the patience to do about an hour’s digging on Google.
- Christian bloggers who swallow and disseminate this guff without digging are credulous fools: Christian bloggers who know better and disseminate it anyway are beneath contempt.
While they might be lying, you’ll miss out on going to HEAVEN!
Wouldn’t you want to meet George Bush there, or Stephen Harper? Hey, even Osama could be there – who knows?
Getting into heaven can’t be much harder than becoming president of the US. You know, it’s “hard work” but I’m sure it can be done.
It’s not too late yet…
That’s never been a worry for me. When I was a kid, my mom made me go to Mass every day for Lent. This special devotion (whose name I forget) apparently guaranteed that I would die in a State of Grace.
I must confess that’s always seemed a bit weird to me. It would seem to give me carte blanche to pursue a career as a serial killer, for example. I guess the assumption is that having been to all those masses, I won’t want to be a serial killer, and, truth be told, I don’t. But still.
I guess if you become a serial killer, you can apply for the absolution thing…
But what if the Pagans are right… are you really willing to risk angering The Daghda
But what if the Pagans are right
Well, stageleft, if you had paid a bit more attention during history classes you would have noticed that throughout time pagans have had it at the wrong end, just like women, blacks, gays, natives, and so on.
We can’t all be right, but are you really that much of a lefty that you can’t see the obvious? Christian faith has always been superior to any other religion. It’s just more democratic, and free, and all that stuff that is decent and holy, than say….err, than not to believe. Bush knows it, and so does Harper, so why can’t you? It’s not too late…
Eric, you barking leftist dog, if you had to make a choice, would you rather live under an Islamic culture or under a Christian culture?
Why yammer against Christians, they are not the big problem, their day has passed.
You are so self righteous.
PS: BTW, I don’t cotton to all that faith healing bullshit either but I don’t dump
on the Christian culture because of such fakery.
I see Canuckguy, it is OK to dump on Islamic culture because of their fringe, but it’s not OK to dump on the Christian culture because of their fringe.
b, you’ll get a charge out of this one from Debunking Atheists
There’s more astounding thoughts where that came from, and the post ends up with the inevitable
Eric, you barking leftist dog, if you had to make a choice, would you rather live under an Islamic culture or under a Christian culture?
B is worse than A, therefore A=inviolable
That’s quite remarkable for a hockey player. I would say. I’m sure many in Christians in the federal government would still agree with you on this. Oh, and the Pope, he has continuously enjoyed his inviolability. And the priests, they’d die for that stuff.
Alfred Hitchcock said it well:
One day when Alfred Hitchcock was still a churchgoing Catholic, he was driving through a Swiss city when he suddenly pointed out of the car window and said,
“That is the most frightening sight I have ever seen.”
His companion was surprised to see nothing more alarming than a priest in conversation with a little boy, his hand on the child’s shoulder.
Hitchcock
“Run, little boy,” cried Hitchcock, leaning out of the car.
“Run for your life!”
Thanks, SL. The metaphor doesn’t work very well, but at least now I have a great set of excuses for why I eat babies.
I have got to figure out how to become charismatic, find a bunch of gullible and rich people, and tell people how to live their lives. Then I can live like these guys;
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/187986
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Content?oid=oid%3A36058
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUyPjeIFKug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff
I still don’t know why people follow these guys, but I do know why they do it. I’m sure I would find God somewhere between the hummer, the $3,000 a night hotel suites, and the yacht.
As for miracles – I have seen some weird things in my life, and maybe God was behind some of them, maybe not. If God was behind them, I doubt he would want me running around telling everyone – “our little secret” kinda thing.
Leftie and Earache
–”OK to dump on Islamic culture because of their fringebut it’s not OK to dump on the Christian culture because of their fringe…”
–The Muslim fringe that you so airly dismiss is much more deadly, dangerous and widespread that the loony Christian fringe. Save your barking for the real threat.
Give ‘em time Canukguy…. give ‘em time. The lunatic fringe is already trying to organize the final battle and dressing up kids in camo gear at the front of the church … give ‘em time.
A few points on Christian violence.
1. Christians that believe they will be fighting in armageddon will not be doing it as mortal people. They will have either previously passed away or will have ascended (rapture). Anyone who thinks otherwise has misread Revelations.
2. Christians that cause violence in the name of Jesus do so AGAINST the teachings of Jesus. He didn’t commission Christians to be warriors, but to be preachers and teachers. Among his final words are to “preach the good news”.
As with all things this seems to depend on your theology….. there are those Christian sects that believe that Armageddon will herald (ie. start before) the prophesied second coming of Christ, those who believe that Armageddon has already begun and is really a fairly long drawn out event that ultimately has a victor, and there are those who believe that Armageddon will begin when the prophesied second coming of Christ happens and he leads the charge (as it were).
I am not qualified in the least to say which one is the correct interpretation of the prophesies, but each sect, with each of their beliefs, is convinced of the absolute biblical and spiritual truth of their interpretation.
With respect to your second point, have you seen Jesus Camp? If not I highly recommend it, those (growing numbers of) folk are the Christian fringe I’m talking about and they believe they are right.
People like Canuckguy (and a great many others) like to come out with wide sweeping generalizations about other cultures and other religions based on their fringes that effectively demonize those cultures and those beliefs, but are the first to cry “but it’s not the same thing” when it comes to their own, and that IMO is willful blindness, or unconcern with what could be — take your pick.
Maybe if I live long enough, I will someday read a posting critical of Islam on this site actually composed by a barking dog leftist.
Canuck – a friendly tip. you’ve spent too much time at Sentinel’s. The kind of simple-minded trolling that works for you over there doesn’t work here. You’re welcome to join the discussion like a grownup, though…why don’t you give that a try?
I think that if you bother look around here Canukguy you’ll find that I’ve been critical of a great many things, including (but not limited to) Yasar Arafat, Hamas, Isareli government policy, American government policy, all of the Canadian political parties, the last two American presidents, the last two Canadian Prime Ministers, the leaders of the last two Opposition parties, our political system in general, Pierre Trudeau, gun control, the nanny state, creeping authoritarianism, religious fanaticism of all stripes, and even fluffy bunny Wiccans.
As is the case with Christianity, Islam is not the problem, it’s the fanatics and extremists who misrepresent it who are.
….. I am under no illusion what-so-ever that I will live long enough for people like you to get that.
I’ll be back
@Donovan –
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
Just sayin’.
An interesting and much disputed quote, often cited by neocon Christians to prove that Christ really was a kick-ass kinda guy who would have gone after Saddam just like Dubya did.
However, in its context (both the rest of the chapter, and Christ’s message overall), it seems likely to me that this is warning to those who think they can slide in Christianity without conflict in the rest of their lives, and indeed, without giving their entire selves over to Christianity.
Jesus came to earth to bring a sword? Wow, kinda dashes that whole “be good and loving and do good things” idea I had of him.
For anyone interested, I read a good book called “A history of the end of the world: How the most controversial book in the bible changed the course of western civilization”.
I am not going to pretend that I understood all of it, but my own personal summary is that the book of revelations is crazy, and the single biggest threat to me and my freedom are those who take it without a grain of salt.
Balb,
That’s rather my point to Donovan. One cannot simply say that Jesus was about peace and love when such provocative verses exist and have been used to justify the actual use of swords and violence for, well, about 2000 years by Christians. As have the nastier parts of the Qu’ran been used in a similar fashion despite the general them of Muhammad’s messages of tolerance.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the message of peace is the overarching message. I’m rather a Richard Dawkins “Atheists for Jesus” type. I quite like the message of peace. As I quite like Buddha’s message of peace or the messages of peace in tolerance that are found in Lao Tzu and even the Qu’ran. I just don’t believe in the dvinity of any of these people or whether the ever really existed or are just myth – the old “finger pointing to the moon” and all that*.
*(For the information of those who don’t know: Buddha once said that his teachings were like “a finger pointing at the moon, do not mistake the finger for the moon”. The moon is the metaphor for enlightenment so the message is do not mistake that which show you the way to enlightenment for the enlightenment itself – do not confuse the message with the messenger. In my opinion, the problem with Christianity is that it has become a cult of personality around the messenger rather than focusing on the message. The message is what is most important, to the point that it doesn’t matter who the messenger is or whether they are a real, literary or mythical figure).