An Adult Debate?
Stephane Dion has decided the best way to meet Stephen Harpers attacks regarding the Liberal carbon tax scheme is to challenge him to an “adult debate“.
Said Dion in Toronto
“I call on the prime minister to debate with me any time on TV on this issue in a respectful, meaningful and adult way,”
….. I’ve watched them both in the House during Question Period and I feel totally conident in stating that neither of them is capable of that unless you remove the words “respectful”, “meaningful” and “adult” from the equation.
PS: If this comes about Dion will lose.
PSS: Craig Oliver says this issue “could” be the centre piece of the next election, he’s wrong, it will be the centre piece of the next federal election campaign, and Dion will (and the Liberals) lose that debate as well.
.
Soundly agree, stageleft. There has been a rather childish reaction to all of this, although I confess to feeling somewhat childish about it myself. My initial reaction to Dion’s tax plan was staggering disbelief. Still, I’d like to see them refute the Liberals on the plan. Given the fact they have produced no numbers except the per tonnage cost, it should be an easy win for the Conservatives.
Pure theatre by Dion. If he wants a debate, how about voting against a confidence motion along with his absentee liberal brethran who just can’t muster up the numbers to defeat this govt.
Actually, I don’t think this will be the centrepiece of the next election. The Conservatives will tie it into more generalized doubts about Dion’s leadership because, well, they don’t want the election to be about the environment.
I’m afraid to venture in to this debate but…I think it (the position as a platform) might work. Harper is probably fair in stating that a fair share of the burden will shift to the oil industry. Is this a bad thing? And if I understand that some individual user will pay more – and that could hurt a lot of Northern First Nation and Inuit communities who (without much option) must depend on fossil fuels but…and again another but – (because I freely admit to being the general jane on this issue) many of us can save from the tax cuts. And when plain janes (or joes) feel like they might finally get a break, hope is born. And at least its a plan.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I don’t mind paying extra for the privilege. And if I don’t want to pay the extras I can find an alternative. And if it will impact our Northern communities then supports need to be in place until alternatives can be found.
This is simplistic in its outlook – but I make no pretense that I am anything more than “simple”. Room for improvement for sure….We need to start somewhere. And we all need to accept a level of responsibility. Most people react to impact on their cash flow…I think it might work in the interim….room for improvement sure but like I said its a plan.
Wideye, you might not mind paying extra, but others might. I also don’t see much evidence that a carbon tax is effective.
Oh and I agree with jane from the bruce – first a backbone will need to be found and an election called.
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I’ve sort of gotten to the point where I don’t care if it’s effective, I want somebody to *do* something. Anything. Even a wrong headed thing. We’ve had 20 years of talk and no action, have pulled out of the Kyoto agreement, and the Conservatives are about “clean air”? Pah.
I’m with wideye and arwen on this.
And I do think it could work. The reactionaries are all up in arms – summarized by Harper’s “it’ll screw everyone” quip – but that’s to be expected.
Don’t forget that just prior to the last election the Environment was polling at #1 on the list of issues people were concerned about. SUV sales are in free-fall, and people are generally beginning to smarten up.
Combined with the fact that most of the working and middle class are not driving hummers, and will appreciate the income tax cut (I know I will), I think this has the makings of a winning issue for Dion.
I’m curious as to why some of you think Dion will “lose that debate” – Harper will try to scare everyone, but I think that’s getting kind of old. In the next election, you’ll see NDP and Green supporters voting strategically for Dion, knowing that his plan is better than no plan (and you gotta know the Liberals are going to sell it that way). I wouldn’t be surprised to see Elizabeth May actively campaigning for Dion (although I may be a dumbass and completely wrong on that one).
Alot of people are starting to feel like wideye and arwen – it’s time to do SOMETHING. If it means paying a few bucks more for things with the money you won’t be paying in income taxes, I think people just might buy into it.
*Humble reminder – I was right about Dion winning the leadership, and I was right about Garth Turner going Lib. The smart money is on this plan (please disregard all of the times I was completely wrong)*
And while I’m at it – I’ll point out that Saudi Arabia just said they would increase oil production (kind of a weird thing to point out when talking Carbon emissions, I know), and several smarty-pant academics are already predicting a substantial drop in oil prices in the next year.
If the bulk of the tax burden will be shifted to oil producers, and the price per barrel drops, one can suggest that the price of gas may well remain where it is now or even drop slightly. In this case, with the right sales pitch to the unwashed masses, this plan will look like a winner.
AND with the increasing likelihood that Obama wipes the floor with McCain this November, one can’t discount the effect of his charisma and no-nonsense approach to raising fuel-effiency standards on vehicles making up for Dion’s lack of personality. Canadians overwhelmingly support Obama over McCain, and if they are singing similar tunes on the environment, it can only help Dion.
2012, the End of the World, and Ethical Spam…
Today we received an entirely new type of spam EMAIL.The gist of the message revolved around a doomsday predicted at the end of 2012. After several paragraphs about voodoo, magic spells, black holes, and ancient prophecies, there was the following……
Hey Throbbin,
Here is a link from the Oil Drum re: the Saudi promise to yet again, boost production.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4202
In short, Saudi Arabia doesn’t have the capacity to boost production. Peak Oil is here and almost all oil producing countries are seeing declines in production year over year. This will be the real issue if we ever have another election.
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Galileo Galilei, spinning in his grave…
Apparently a high priest of global warming caused by man, has made a new pronouncement….
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080623.wgreenpoll0623/BNStory/Front
I hate being right all the time.
I’m not a Liberal and I’m not completely sold on this carbon tax, though I do support the principle of one, provided there is sufficient compensation for low-income and rural residents. That said, I think Dion is entirely justified in asking for a debate. He has made a damning charge toward Dion, saying that his plan will screw Canadians, without providing any evidence to support that statement. If Dion’s plan is that bad, Harper should not be afraid of a debate.
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Admittedly, th…
Stephen K, I suggest you read Greg Weston’s piece today to get just the tip of the iceberg on how Dion’s plan will “screw” Canadians. You can be sure that Harper and others will use those figures over and over again.
As for the need to debate this, if Dion is so keen on it, why is he refusing to do so with both Layton and May? And why did he not release this plan while Parliament is in session, where you’re supposed to debate these things, right?
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Chapter Seventeen…
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A complet…
I don’t recall the last time I heard a debate in the house of commons – just a lot of name calling and “stupid” red herrings thrown back and forth as if to divert attention from the fact they have no plan. I think that Dion SHOULD debate this with Layton and May…in my ever humble opinion to do so would leave Harper the definitive coward with wind in his pants and not much else for a plan.
Wideye, Dion is more than welcome to raise the level of debate in the House of Commons. Instead, he’s gotten in the gutter with the rest of them, hasn’t he?
That he now wants a debate on his plan, and on his terms, suggests that it’s nothing more than a stunt.
There is no hope of having a reasonable debate in the House (or anywhere else for that matter) Dennis, they’re all to busy hoping to be the one who comes out with the 30 second sound bite the news folk pick up on… and then stroking each other silly if “their side” got one.
Dennis, that Weston article is consistent with your bias, just as I’m sure Dion will use the arguments I have seen that have been made in favour. For a more nuanced view of the carbon tax, I suggest you check out Relentlessly Progressive Economics blog. These guys are actually economists.
Why should he debate Layton and May? Harper made the charge. Layton hasn’t (probably because he’s too smart to). May hasn’t even come out against it.
Whooee! Don’t count on Obama to come up with anything meaningful. He’s very closely aligned with the US ethanol lobby. Ethanol ain’t green and it contributes to the global food crisis that’s killing 24,000 people a day.
There’s some adult carbon tax debate taking place in the Canajun boogeysphere. There are also a lot of BT’s callin’ names like eco-whacks, leftwing dummies, rats and other childish schoolyard taunts. The reaction by the Con’s isn’t making them look good; especially, when they don’t even have a plan of their own.
FWIW, I’m a 59 YO low income, rural, self-employed, business owner living in a drafty 1880 frame shack 100 miles from Trawna. I welcome the carbon tax and only wsh we were talking about the $50/tonne version proposed by the gal I adore, Earth Mother Lizzie May.
JB
Stephen K, a “Relentlessly Progressive Economics Blog” will not be consistent with YOUR bias? lol
Weston makes a very simple point. Dion’s plan involves slapping over a $1 billion tax on electricity power supply in Ontario.
As I point out on my own blog, it’s awfully hard to sell people on having to carry the burden with higher electricity bills, especially if the “shift” in income taxes isn’t spelled out dollar for dollar, which it can’t be.
As for your point about debates, why shouldn’t Dion debate all the party leaders, especially when two specifically asked for the debate? I know why, because it’s a stunt. That’s why.
Oddly enough hydro costs were something I was discussing with a group of very pro no matter what the costs to anyone, something has to be done dag-na-mit!! Green Shift advocates in IRC this afternoon. In Nunavut all fuel is shipped in by sea lift barge or ship, it is some of the most expensive fuel in Canada, and it generates all of the electricity – which is also the most expensive in Canada.
It’s all well and good for people living in what most northerners would consider the land of dirt cheap fuel and hydro to talk this up, but their contribution to this something is gonna be no where near what someone living in Resolute Bay is going to contribute is it?
Even though I’m pretty sure that we’re well passed the climate tipping point I’m still all for doing something to mitigate the damage, but lets make it an equitable something so that people in rural and remote areas are not getting screwed over (that’s right, I said it “screwed over“).
How about we factor it into a national cost of living scheme so that the folks who are already paying $5 for a loaf of bread kick in their share and then we
upsuper-size the contribution of folks in the south to match — ’cause we wouldn’t want any cries of favoritism and hand-outs tainting this now would we.I wonder how quick the folks currently calling for something to be done right now and we’re willing to deal with the personal sacrifice dammit!! will start calling for a little caution when they discover it’s actually gonna touch their bank account in the same significant way that rural and remote people will be affected…. especially when their tax credit isn’t going to be seen until sometime in the next calendar year?
I further wonder if any of them are willing to go north and help some poor Liberal sod campaign on this something?
This here is one person who will still support the plan, knowing full well that I will be moving back home within the next 2 or 3 years, and will be affected by the astronomical price of goods.
I will support this plan because it is the best (realistic) plan I have seen to slow down our emissions output, because I do not want my homeland to melt, because I want my son to experience the beautiful land of Nunavut that I experienced as a child, and because there is currently no better alternative with a realistic chance of changing anything.
I will support this plan because people are not going to change their habits out of the goodness of their hearts – anyone who thinks so is loonie.
People in the north have been getting the shaft for hundreds of years now. I don’t doubt that prices will go even crazier back home, and that people will suffer as a result (even moreso than they are now). The fact that Nunavummiut already pay the most in the country for the basic necessities of life is not fair in the least (especially considering all of the resource wealth that is being ripped from the ground around them). However, this is a case where if nothing is done to at least begin to address the problem of CO2, my son and/or his sons and/or his sons will never get to experience what I was able to as a child, and that terrifies me even more than a hit to the bank account…much more.
As for going up north to help a poor Liberal sod campaign…well, that’s a whole other story.
Dennis, you might want to actually check out the Relentlessly Progressive Economics blog before making assumptions about what biases it has. You obviously haven’t. It’s actually very skeptical of Dion’s tax in many ways, but comes at it from a much more nuanced perspective than Weston does. It’s on the PB blogroll. Check it out.
Stephen K, I’ll throw it right back atchya. I suggest you read more of Weston before concluding that he’s some kind of hack for the forces of Harperism.
Regarding some of the points others have made:
a) I still haven’t seen any evidence that a carbon tax is effective. In other words, does it do what it’s supposed to, and at a reasonable cost? In fact, the evidence in other jurisdictions suggests that the answer to both is no.
b) Regardless of whether or not someone thinks this is a good plan, or thinks it might work, a big question is selling it to Canadians. And, as I wrote on my own blog again, people usually don’t vote for pain. They also don’t vote for dramatic change they just don’t understand.
Despite all the excitement over this plan, it was introduced at a time when a hapless opposition leader’s tenure was most vulnerable to attack from all sides.
I still find it amazing what a leftist politician can achieve by waving a green scarf or hat for a couple of days. Wow.
NEWS & OPINION ROUNDUP (25 JUNE 2008) ANIA EGLAND EDITION…
Remember the scummy ad from the MoveOn hacks with baby Alex? Ania Egland, who grew up under communism sets the record straight.
Chalk one up for feminazi’s across America. Hillary ask a man to pay her bills. Does this make Bill …
Dennis, I did read the Weston column you linked to above. I didn’t find it any more compelling than a lot of info I’ve come across. I never said he was a Harper hack, BTW.
Have you checked out the blog I mentioned yet? As I have tried to convey, I do not have a vested interest on either side of this issue. While I support the principle of a carbon tax provided low-income and rural people are sufficiently compensated, I’m not convinced at this point that Dion’s plan meets that test.
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Impeach Anthony Kennedy…
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I still find it amazing grown adults are shallow enough to make stupid comments like this, especially when Harper quite possibly faces the prospect of losing his government to someone EVERYONE agrees is pretty short in the Charisma department. Ouch.
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[...] Carl, Pirate’s Cove, The Pink Flamingo, Gulf Coast Hurricane Tracker, Dumb Ox Daily News, , Stageleft, Right Voices, and Gone Hollywood, thanks to Linkfest Haven Deluxe. Close this WindowBookmark and [...]
Pizzas for the troops for the 4th of July!!!…
I heard an interview with this guy on Johnny B the other day.
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