Pure theatre by Dion. If he wants a debate, how about voting against a confidence motion along with his absentee liberal brethran who just can’t muster up the numbers to defeat this govt.

I’m afraid to venture in to this debate but…I think it (the position as a platform) might work. Harper is probably fair in stating that a fair share of the burden will shift to the oil industry. Is this a bad thing? And if I understand that some individual user will pay more - and that could hurt a lot of Northern First Nation and Inuit communities who (without much option) must depend on fossil fuels but…and again another but - (because I freely admit to being the general jane on this issue) many of us can save from the tax cuts. And when plain janes (or joes) feel like they might finally get a break, hope is born. And at least its a plan.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don’t mind paying extra for the privilege. And if I don’t want to pay the extras I can find an alternative. And if it will impact our Northern communities then supports need to be in place until alternatives can be found.

This is simplistic in its outlook - but I make no pretense that I am anything more than “simple”. Room for improvement for sure….We need to start somewhere. And we all need to accept a level of responsibility. Most people react to impact on their cash flow…I think it might work in the interim….room for improvement sure but like I said its a plan.

Oh and I agree with jane from the bruce - first a backbone will need to be found and an election called.

I’m with wideye and arwen on this.

And I do think it could work. The reactionaries are all up in arms - summarized by Harper’s “it’ll screw everyone” quip - but that’s to be expected.

Don’t forget that just prior to the last election the Environment was polling at #1 on the list of issues people were concerned about. SUV sales are in free-fall, and people are generally beginning to smarten up.

Combined with the fact that most of the working and middle class are not driving hummers, and will appreciate the income tax cut (I know I will), I think this has the makings of a winning issue for Dion.

I’m curious as to why some of you think Dion will “lose that debate” - Harper will try to scare everyone, but I think that’s getting kind of old. In the next election, you’ll see NDP and Green supporters voting strategically for Dion, knowing that his plan is better than no plan (and you gotta know the Liberals are going to sell it that way). I wouldn’t be surprised to see Elizabeth May actively campaigning for Dion (although I may be a dumbass and completely wrong on that one).

Alot of people are starting to feel like wideye and arwen - it’s time to do SOMETHING. If it means paying a few bucks more for things with the money you won’t be paying in income taxes, I think people just might buy into it.

*Humble reminder - I was right about Dion winning the leadership, and I was right about Garth Turner going Lib. The smart money is on this plan (please disregard all of the times I was completely wrong)*

Hey Throbbin,

Here is a link from the Oil Drum re: the Saudi promise to yet again, boost production.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4202

In short, Saudi Arabia doesn’t have the capacity to boost production. Peak Oil is here and almost all oil producing countries are seeing declines in production year over year. This will be the real issue if we ever have another election.

I’m not a Liberal and I’m not completely sold on this carbon tax, though I do support the principle of one, provided there is sufficient compensation for low-income and rural residents. That said, I think Dion is entirely justified in asking for a debate. He has made a damning charge toward Dion, saying that his plan will screw Canadians, without providing any evidence to support that statement. If Dion’s plan is that bad, Harper should not be afraid of a debate.

I don’t recall the last time I heard a debate in the house of commons - just a lot of name calling and “stupid” red herrings thrown back and forth as if to divert attention from the fact they have no plan. I think that Dion SHOULD debate this with Layton and May…in my ever humble opinion to do so would leave Harper the definitive coward with wind in his pants and not much else for a plan.

There is no hope of having a reasonable debate in the House (or anywhere else for that matter) Dennis, they’re all to busy hoping to be the one who comes out with the 30 second sound bite the news folk pick up on… and then stroking each other silly if “their side” got one.

Whooee! Don’t count on Obama to come up with anything meaningful. He’s very closely aligned with the US ethanol lobby. Ethanol ain’t green and it contributes to the global food crisis that’s killing 24,000 people a day.

There’s some adult carbon tax debate taking place in the Canajun boogeysphere. There are also a lot of BT’s callin’ names like eco-whacks, leftwing dummies, rats and other childish schoolyard taunts. The reaction by the Con’s isn’t making them look good; especially, when they don’t even have a plan of their own.

FWIW, I’m a 59 YO low income, rural, self-employed, business owner living in a drafty 1880 frame shack 100 miles from Trawna. I welcome the carbon tax and only wsh we were talking about the $50/tonne version proposed by the gal I adore, Earth Mother Lizzie May.

JB

Originally Posted By Dennis (Second Thots)

Weston makes a very simple point. Dion’s plan involves slapping over a $1 billion tax on electricity power supply in Ontario.

Oddly enough hydro costs were something I was discussing with a group of very pro no matter what the costs to anyone, something has to be done dag-na-mit!! Green Shift advocates in IRC this afternoon. In Nunavut all fuel is shipped in by sea lift barge or ship, it is some of the most expensive fuel in Canada, and it generates all of the electricity - which is also the most expensive in Canada.

It’s all well and good for people living in what most northerners would consider the land of dirt cheap fuel and hydro to talk this up, but their contribution to this something is gonna be no where near what someone living in Resolute Bay is going to contribute is it?

Even though I’m pretty sure that we’re well passed the climate tipping point I’m still all for doing something to mitigate the damage, but lets make it an equitable something so that people in rural and remote areas are not getting screwed over (that’s right, I said it “screwed over“).

How about we factor it into a national cost of living scheme so that the folks who are already paying $5 for a loaf of bread kick in their share and then we up super-size the contribution of folks in the south to match — ’cause we wouldn’t want any cries of favoritism and hand-outs tainting this now would we.

I wonder how quick the folks currently calling for something to be done right now and we’re willing to deal with the personal sacrifice dammit!! will start calling for a little caution when they discover it’s actually gonna touch their bank account in the same significant way that rural and remote people will be affected…. especially when their tax credit isn’t going to be seen until sometime in the next calendar year?

I further wonder if any of them are willing to go north and help some poor Liberal sod campaign on this something?

Dennis, you might want to actually check out the Relentlessly Progressive Economics blog before making assumptions about what biases it has. You obviously haven’t. It’s actually very skeptical of Dion’s tax in many ways, but comes at it from a much more nuanced perspective than Weston does. It’s on the PB blogroll. Check it out.

Dennis, I did read the Weston column you linked to above. I didn’t find it any more compelling than a lot of info I’ve come across. I never said he was a Harper hack, BTW.

Have you checked out the blog I mentioned yet? As I have tried to convey, I do not have a vested interest on either side of this issue. While I support the principle of a carbon tax provided low-income and rural people are sufficiently compensated, I’m not convinced at this point that Dion’s plan meets that test.