The photos are both gory and telling…..much like the aftermath of the palestinian suicide bomber on the Egged bus 14 some years ago or the nut who went into the pizza restaurant and took out himself and countless body parts.

I agree. The point is, however, when a heart thumping piece of journalism such as that of the palestinian photos is placed in isolation to the overall picture, it takes on a one-sided perspective and can hardly be classified as “balanced”. The far better course would have been to depict the savagery on both sides, as is the reality of any war, rather than pick and choose the message. The latter is okay if that is what one wants to say, but it certainly is not appropriate to isolate it and castigate only one side in the conflict.

“…it takes on a one-sided perspective and can hardly be classified as “balanced”.”

I don’t think Stageleft’s intent is to be “balanced”, a stance which induces its own paralysis.

I’m afraid equating “criticizing Israel” with “supporting terrorism” is a bit tired.

I’ve never been entirely sure what “they” mean by “moral relativism” myself - it seems to me to be an inevitable aspect of existence, unless you have the moral intelligence of a ten year old or a complete ideological fool (i.e., stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving child is NOT the moral equivalent of stealing a widow’s retirement savings). If you want to dismiss an argument with a fashionable cliché, be my guest.

The substantive issue under discussion (I think - correct me if I’m wrong, SL) is the concept of punishing a civilian population as a tactic to reduce popular support for a political entity.

Rather than dragging out a trite, tedious set of not-very-good knee-jerk counter-arguments, may I suggest one counter-argument that really does make sense? (Sorry, but it would be interesting to have a discussion with a bit of actual substance.)

SL, how do you distinguish here between the actions of Israel and such embargoes as were practiced, with UN endorsement, against Iraq and South Africa? Again, the intent was to weaken a domestic regime, and again, the primary victims were the poorest and weakest citizens.

LoL. I wonder whether Hamas pays Stageleft for this pathetic propaganda effort. I mean… everything in this world is done for financial gain, right? Or is it just Jews like Ezra?

Gaza is connected to the Israeli and Egyptian electricity grids. Electricity supply never stopped. Israel continued supply 75% of the normal electricity consumption in Gaza. Egypt supplied 5%. 80% is enough to supply residential and priority needs. If hospitals and residential areas are in the dark, it simply reflects how the Hamas government distributes power.

As for food supplies… Gazans could surely produce food if they wanted to. Instead they destroyed Israeli built greenhouses which were purchased for Gazans by western Jews. Still, they have hands - I mean they seem to be producing ammunition alright.

Of course the vast majority of “Palestinians” killed by Israel in the numbers mentioned by Stageleft were armed terrorists from Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Wonder why that didn’t get a mention. Hardly Israel’s fault that they operate from civilian areas.

Israel has got to be the first country ever to feed and supply people who are bombarding her own civilians every single day. Interruptions in supplies are designed to ensure that there is no humanitarian crisis - despite the best efforts of Hamas to cause it to score propaganda points.

The life in Israeli areas adjacent to Gaza has been frozen - kids cant go to school and companies can’t operate while everyone is hiding in the bombshelters; wonder why that never gets mentioned by various Hamas mouthpieces?

….much like the aftermath of the palestinian suicide bomber on the Egged bus 14 some years ago or the nut who went into the pizza restaurant and took out himself and countless body parts.

How far back do you want to go fox? The first Palestinian fanatic who strapped explosives to himself and detonated on a bus? The fanatic Jewish who went into a shared place of worship with a gun and started killing Muslims for being there? Where do you want to start the marker?

I don’t think Stageleft’s intent is to be “balanced”,

There is no balance, a poverty stricken (through the actions of others) and weak people are being opporessed by a wealthy and powerful government, and human rights atrocities are being committed.

If the Burmize government did this they’d be condemned by the western world, when the Israeli government does it people shrug and go “people get treated badly”, too bad, don’t talk about it, you might be labeled anti-Semitic, are we out of gray pupon….

Are the people not responsible for their support of the terrorist Hamas? Do you believe they want no part of the “destroy Israel” mentality? Is it your view that they only want peace and a place to call their own?

Hamas is offering people hope that someday they may be able to return to their homes and their land, it is claiming to offer an end to oppression - when you, your family, and your friends have been exiled and you’re living in a garbage dump those claims don’t have to be logical, or even necessarily all that deliverable - all they have to do is offer a measure of hope that they do not get from the Israeli government.

If all or indeed any of the above, why then do they persist in aiding and abetting the terrorists? Please do not come out with that old bromide that it is “only a few” and the retaliation is disproportionate.

A terrorist in every hovel and a rocket launcher under every sleeping mat….. bet if they had doors there’d be rifle standing behind each of them ‘eh fox - good line.

Sending missiles is an act of war

The Palestinian people are not sending rockets fox and the government of Israel is killing far more innocents than they are militants.

On researching this statement after being called on it by shlemazl I see that it is factually incorrect by a a very large margin. The numbers vary however the number of Palestinian civilians killed as a direct result of Israeli military actions appears to be at around 30% of the total number of Palestinians killed and not “far more” as I asserted in the comment.

My apologies to shlemazl, and others, who were, or may have been, offended by the original statement. It has been stroked out but remains visible above this edit as opposed to simply edited out as if I had never made the statement as part of the record.

sadly enough, people get rather badly treated in war

The opportunity for peace was there for all when the Israelis left Gaza.

The opportunity for peace was lost when people were exiled from their homes, had their property taken, and were denied the right to go home.

Where are you from fox? If a few gvernments sprinkled around the world decided one day to give your home province or state to someone else against the will of the people who lived there what would you feel?

Whatever happened? The residual infrastructure was destroyedby the incoming palestinians; the hatred continued, and the area is now a staging ground for kassam rockets. I don’t see too much unrelated about all that.

No, Israel and the PA ended up destroying the homes - guess who wanted that clause?

Hatred? Yeah, take a wee wander down to the local library and do some reading, when was the last time the oppressed loved and embraced their oppressors?

The opportunity for peace was lost when people were exiled from their homes, had their property taken, and were denied the right to go home.

Are you talking about the Hebron Massacre in 1920s when an ancient Jewish community was wiped out and Jewish civilians elsewhere were attacked by Arab mobs? I think that was the first Jewish-Arab 20th century violence in the land. I mean before there was persecution, ethnic cleansing, blood libel and pogroms against Jews in the region, but do you want to go that far back?

I bet you are actually talking about the consequences of the war for Independence, the war which was started by the Arabs.

There will never be peace anywhere if terrorism were to be justified by history. I think it’s time to move on, but terrorists and their supporters hold a different viewpoint.

Rafael,

So you source your summaries of “Palestinian opinion” from Electronic Intifada??? Guess you are one of those who used to source information on “views of the Russians” from Pravda.

There are two obvious lies in the first sentence of that piece:

1. Israel never froze electricity supply to Gaza and
2. Israel isn’t the occupying power in Gaza. Remember who runs Gaza? Israel just controls borders, except for borders with Egypt.

And by the way, shutting the Israeli borders appeared to have produced the desired effect - reduction in bombardment of Israel.

Actually it takes a certain kind of individual to justify the collective punishment of innocents because it serves others to punish them.

I would suggest to you shlemazl that Most Israelis do consider basic human dignity important - it’s just unfortunate that their government does not, otherwise we would not have the humanitarian crisis in Gaza that we have today.

I think that was the first Jewish-Arab 20th century violence in the land.

Oh come on shlemazl, I’m sure you can do better than that.

Has anyone ever considered that the Hamas thugs (and I trust we are all in agreement that the Hamas “thugs” are in fact Hamas “thugs”) have deliberately exacerbated the situation in Gaza for purely political propaganda purposes? Such as directing the bakery shops to remain closed notwithstanding the fact (evidence) that there is plenty of flour in stock from the UNWRA allocations? Or that the gasoline to fuel the generators and various pieces of equipment necessary to maintain infrastructure support is being taken by Hamas to the exclusion of all others? Indeed, has anyone looked into the issue of just who is in those photos taken by the palestinian photographer? If they are the remains of terrorists, is there any real conceern? Just wondering.

Hey there Zionist Crusader. Go easy on the invective. The debate has been fruitful and indeed interesting even if certain of us has a slanted point of view. There is really no need for ugly terms over serious issues, right or wrong. You have a point, but present it with respect, and maybe a touch, but just a touch, of sarcasm or annoyance. Humour is always helpful as well. As it says below, “re-think comment”

JB:

Rice is absolutely correct. Nobody wants innocent people to suffer except for Hamas and their supporters and extremists that think that what happened a long time ago justifies terrorist activities.

Israel, for example, is bending over backwards by supplying Gaza which is in the mean time bomarding Israel. Clearly it’s Israel’s obligation to defend her citizens by all means, at the same time minimizing impact on civilians in Gaza. Providing Gazans is not Israel’s responsibility, but Israel does a lot towards this anyway. Having said this innocent people will inevitably suffer because of the tactics used by the terrorists.

@Stageleft:

There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The situation isn’t great but people have food and basic services. What they have is 100% due to the actions of Hamas et al. It’s simple: do not attack Israel and if you do then take responsibility for the consequences.

Oh come on shlemazl, I’m sure you can do better than that.

Is this the best you can do in response to very specific points demonstrating that bringing in historic arguments is pointless; that is if one is interested in peace. What I said is correct - Hebron Massacre was indeed the first chapter of violence in the conflict. Furthermore over the years there were refugees on both sides. However, unlike you, I am not claiming that it would be justified to target Arab pizzerias.

Equating the state of Israel with Judaism sets up anyone who criticizes Israel with being labeled as anti-Semitic.

That’s the whole point of the tactic JimBobby, (a weak, tired, and pathetic) attempt to suppress legitimate discussion regarding the tactics of a state by labeling those who criticize that state as Jew haters and bigots.

As I’ve told these dogmatics before, they need to be really (really) careful because one day their tactics are gonna come back and bite them and the people no one is actually taking about, hard on the ass because anti-Semitic will come to mean “criticism of Israel” instead of what it really is, and few people will know the real meaning of the word when anti-Semitism does appear.

Shlemazl seems to be intent on downplaying the effects of Israel’s blockade.

A pretty standard shlemazl tactic, he seems unable to separate either the Jewish people from their state government or the Palestinian people from the militants of Hamas - he has exactly the same problem with the American people and their government, they are apparently the same thing.

This post is just another pile of steaming leftard hatemongering.

Ah yes, the dogmatic appears, spews rhetoric, pats him/herself on the back for a job well done against the Jew hating liberal forces of evil and fades away.

Has anyone ever considered that the Hamas thugs (and I trust we are all in agreement that the Hamas “thugs” are in fact Hamas “thugs”) have deliberately exacerbated the situation in Gaza for purely political propaganda purposes?

Absolutely, in fact it may be difficult to find a more used people on the face of the planet - Hamas uses them as expendable pawns in their fight against Israel, Israel uses them as expendable pawns in their fight against Hamas, the surrounding Arab nations use them as whipping posts against Israel, and the western world shrugs and uses phrases like “bad things happen” and then supports whatever Israel does because to do otherwise is to be a Jew hater.

… I swear, it’s the sort of general persecution that in earlier days would warrant it’s on book in the bible.

If the Palestinians aspire to a different reality, all they have to do is ensure no one attacks Israel from Palestinian soil.

Of course lrC, it’s all the Palestinian peoples’ fault, they deserve whatever they get and Israel can do no wrong - heard it all before man, can you bring nothing new to the table?

Absolutely, in fact it may be difficult to find a more used people on the face of the planet

What a patronizing way to put it! It’s like they are children not responsible for what they do; only do what they are told.

Has anyone ever considered that the palestinians, by general description, and in a broad sense, are uneducated, poor as churchmice, ignored in every sense except for propaganda by virtually every arab state, and themselves are hate-filled as a result of constant inculcation by their own “state” (well, there is no state, so what do we call them)? Whereas their next door neighbour is prosperous, industrious, educated, modern and net contributors to the well-being of the world. Can we not consider their angst and hatred to be founded in jealousy of the state next door? Certainly when they speak of the “right of return” they speak of the exodus of their forebears who voluntarily left their lands to take up the war against Israel, which they lost. Can it not be legitimately said that they lost the right of return once and for all, and that should, in the world view, become a non-issue? All that said, it is unreasonable to consider that the preponderance of the palestinians have made the bed they are obliged to lie in?

Dude, check either this site, or your own, you’ve made it nice and clear what your opinion is in both places

I never used the words you put into my mouth. That simple. Does not mean I think you are a reasonable, fair, unbiased, non-prejudiced person, but I just never said that you are an anti-Semite. You are definitely anti-Israeli; this blatently obvious propaganda lies are another proof - if one needs it. Does not necessarily make you an anti-Semite.

Now that you raised it… I am not sure whether you are or not. I thought not, but a couple of posts made me wonder. There was one where you put words - and the blame - in the mouths of the Jewish community regarding Tutu contrary to the article you sorced your post from.

More recently there was a post on Ezra Levant and his publication of Mohammed cartoons. The issue is freedom of speech, but for some reason you kept going on about Ezra’s money-grubbing motives. Something that’s totally irrelevant and fits rather nicely with anti-Semitic stereotypes. Does not mean that you are an anti-Semite, but it’s possible.

Fair and reasonable criticism of Israel is welcome as long as Israhell and Amerikkka aren’t the only two places on the globe that are targeted. Lies and propaganda are not. Israel-haters, anti-Zionists aren’t always anti-Semitic. So what? Does not make them any nicer.

What you are actually doing is an attempt to deflect arguments pointing out that your posts targeting Israel are anti-Israeli propaganda and lies by claiming that you are just standing up to false accusations of anti-Semitism. It’s ironic: you are making Israel suffer your lies because Jews suffer from anti-Semitism.

Really, and when and where did I do that shlemazl?

Fox: I don’t think Stageleft’s intent is to be “balanced”

Stageleft: There is no balance, a poverty stricken (through the actions of others) and weak people are being opporessed by a wealthy and powerful government, and human rights atrocities are being committed

“What you are actually doing is an attempt to deflect arguments pointing out that your posts targeting Israel are anti-Israeli propaganda and lies by claiming that you are just standing up to false accusations of anti-Semitism. It’s ironic: you are making Israel suffer your lies because Jews suffer from anti-Semitism.”

Well, actually, Stageleft’s post was about the morality of targeting civilian populations as a strategy for effecting political change. The deflection? Well, Shlem, once again, you want to make this a thread about Stageleft’s “antisemitism”. Gosh, look at that - we’re not talking about Israel’s boycott anymore - we’re talking about that awful Stageleft.

Now, that awful Stageleft is an interesting topic (I have some issues with the noises that come out of his end of the Bunker when the rest of us are trying to sleep). But it gets a little tedious when the rest of us are trying to discuss another topic.

So tell you what. We’ll start a brand new thread, just for you. You can address the subject of That Awful Stageleft in THAT thread, and the rest of us (plus you, if you’re interested) can continue to discuss the morality of punishing civilians.

“No, stageleft’s post wasn’t about a hypothetical issue of morality.”

Quite correct. Nor did I say it was. It was about a specific instance of targeting civilians as a way of putting pressure on political leadership.

I’ve created your Special Thread.

“Nah; it wasn’t about any issues.”

Well, it sorta was. The discussion wandered a fair bit into some of the usual evasions…(they’re not suffering THAT much; Stageleft is a lying anti-semite; it’s Hamas’ fault; Palestinians are undereducated, jealous, violent, etc., etc., etc.)

Most of that is tangential to the main point, which is that collective punishment is being visited on a civilian population. The discussion has been interesting, in that it provides a familiar litany of the excuses normally employed by governments undertaking such actions. Especially telling is the argument, suggested several times above, which I will summarize as “Their suffering is their own fault - if they’d stop supporting (or tolerating, or not revolting against) Hamas, we wouldn’t be punishing them this way”. And that’s precisely the essence of collective punishment - no? Inflicting suffering on a civilian population to foment political change?

I think to deny that, or to accuse those who point it out, of “anti-semitism” (whether or not you choose to use the words, or just mince around them - and don’t worry, Shlem, we’re not the litigious types) is silly. I think a better argument is to acknowledge that that’s precisely what Israel is doing, to a lesser degree than the UN in Iraq (which we seem collectively, left and right, to have agreed was acceptable).