Interesting. So, somehow Israel is obliged to supply the entity which is raining missiles on her cities.

I do wonder whether Canada was sending weat to Germany during WWII? Why wouldn’t you castigate Egypt for supplying so little electricity to Gaza - after all Egyptian civilians are not attacked by Gazans.

Perhaps we are treating the Jewish state just a little differently from all other states? Same old stuff.

Why am I not surprised that the collective punishment issue isn’t addressed?

Rapheal, that’s a good oh well shrug you got going there, be proud of it….. states who engage in this sort of activity thank, and depend on, you.

shlemazl, dig your head out of your arse, take a deep breath of fresh air, and see if that allows any sort of thinking process to take place. Israel is targeting civilians with this action, as they have targeted civilians in other actions.

More than 1.4 million Gaza Palestinians are facing an impending health disaster from decaying sewage and water systems that lack vital spare parts, fuel, and maintenance work, due to an Israeli economic siege on the Gaza Strip.

[ ….. ]

The World Bank and UNICEF have reported that despite repeated requests Israel has forbidden the importation by any means — sea, air, or by land across the Egyptian border — of consignments of pumps, metal pipes, air and oil filters, and other goods that need to be obtained from outside Gaza; while allowing only a few basics to be trucked through the Erez crossing with Israel in the northern Gaza Strip.

Israel has every right in the world to defend itself against attacks on it and its’ people, but in this Hamas and Israel seem to share a common philosophy - f_uck the completely innocent Palestinians men, women, and children, who suffer and die - the lot of them, and their defenders, are blights on humanity.

lrC, care to address the concept that under international law collective punishment is illegal? Or are some [supposedly] civilized countries exempt?

D-4

D-7

D-9

M-5

F-2

F-3

F-4 (right on cue)

There, thread complete.

The reason “collective punishment” issue isn’t addressed because it is pointless arguing with a racist demagogue.

Nevertheless…

According to Wikipedia: Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments are a war crime. Article 33 states: “No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed,” and “collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.”

By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World Wars I and II. In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity.

So, the answer is “no, it is not collective punishment as per Geneva Convention.”

The reason you are a racist demagogue is that it is blatentely obvious that reduction in power supply to Gaza in response to terror does not fall under Geneva convention. In fact any trade reduction measure is “collective punishment” the way you define it. Boycott of Apartheid was such “collective punishment” as are calls by certain unions to boycott Israel. when Canada stopped supplying wheat to Nazi Germany, it was also “collective punishment” according to Stageleft because it targeted German civilians.

Clearly you won’t be satisfied whatever Israel does to defend herself against daily terror and attempted murder specifically targeting Israeli civilians (i.e. collective punishment under the Geneva Convention).

So what we actually have here is “Hamas and Stageleft seem to share a common philosophy - f_uck the completely innocent Israeli men, women, and children, who suffer and die “

Shlem’s point isn’t to address the point you raised. It’s a pre-emptive strike against critics of certain Israeli policies. That’s all.

I must say he’s getting shriller, though. Don’t think he’s ever called you a racist, a demagogue and Hamas in a single post before.

>lrC, care to address the concept that under international law collective punishment is illegal? Or are some [supposedly] civilized countries exempt?

Then what adverse pressure is there in the realm of diplomacy (the part of Clausewitz’s spectrum of politics which is not in the “war” band which lies at one end) which can be applied to a nation or people which is not “collective punishment”?

I would strongly suggest to you, and people like you, that you save the usage of such words and phrases for when you encounter the real thing, otherwise when they do rear their ugly heads people won’t know what they really mean; and you will have only yourself to blame for their potential confusion and indifference

I agree. It took me a long time to get from shlemazl’s position to agreeing with that quote but I now agree.

Which doesn’t mean that Israel doesn’t have counterarguments that can be made-it’s just that I don’t think that the racism 0r anti-Semitism card should be played in those circumstances. The fact that one can argue that Israel is being held to a higher standard doesn’t necessarily require that anti-Semitism is the reason.

BUT that doesn’t mean that there aren’t critics of Israeli policy and anti-Zionists who aren’t anti-Semites in the classical sense. Sometimes they are allowed to perpetrate negative group stereotypes concerning Jews in a way that stereotyping of blacks, natives and other identifiable groups would not be tolerated. Or they hold Jews collectively responsible for the actions of Israel when they would not hold Muslim Canadians responsible for the actions of Muslim organizations or states. To some extent that is because of the phenomenon that I quoted above-good people are smeared and so the charge of anti-Semitism is treated with suspicion. Nonetheless we need to be conscious of anti-Semites who prey on discussions geared to justice for Palestinians, a cause that does not concern them at all, as a means to foment hatred for Jews here at home.

The fact that those people-and you know who I am talking about-are treated with kid gloves at times-is a disgrace and an embarrassment.

balbulican,

Agreed-I wasn’t referring to your site.

For example, I’ve seen shlemazl referred to (elsewhere) as “Smeagol the Jew” for his views regarding Israel.

Unacceptable.

You have to understand, Marky, that Shlemazl has his own, very special definition of “racism”, and he really doesn’t like folks criticizing Israel. We just let him go on…it seems to make him feel better.

And by the way, comparing the nation of Israel to Hamas or baselessly accusing it of breaching the Geneva Convention is not “criticism”. Neither is this a one-off.

Wow. So in your view, Stageleft’s criticism of Israeli policy “has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life”? Really?

1. It’s not “criticism”. It’s blood libel. Lie. There is NOTHING in common between Hamas and the state of Israel. Israel is in full compliance with the Geneva convention. That simple.

2. The targeting of Israel by Stageleft is prejudice because exactly the same actions (i.e. trade sanctions) are routinely implemented by pretty much the whole world - Canada included - and he is not screaming “collective punishment, breach of Geneva convention!!!”. He does the same thing over and over again.

3. I’ve read enough idiotism for one day. Sorry, but I am not going to bother with your post.

The rest of the definition is a simple description of what Stageleft is trying to do to Israelis.

He is trying to impair or nullify the right of Israelis not to be showered by missiles (i.e. the right to life and the right to live in peace) and to defend themselves as they see fit if they are - on an equal footing with all other nations.

Reduction in trade is the mildest measure imaginable against an agressor targeting civilians, so Stageleft sees any self-defense by Israelis as a breach of Geneva convention and equivalent to the actions of Hamas.

Stageleft supports reasonable self-defence measures. Clearly that would be Jews hiding behind Gharkad tree which is where he is consistent with Hamas.

When you get around to it, do read the Ezra Papers…really, I’m sure you’ll be able to whip it into a Holocaust Denial or something equally juicy, as only Shlemazl can.

Every time you squeech about things I never said. That would be because you have nothing to say about what I do say. May I also ask you to keep your dirty fingers away from referring to subjects like Holocaust for no reason?

Incidentally, from a post a couple of weeks back, I noticed that you guys are big fans of Ron Paul. Does not surprise me in the least: you do have a lot of common ememies with Stormfront.

Dear shlemazl, Israel is a state, it is not a race, and racism does not enter into the equation - again, your tired “anti-Israeli policy, and/or criticism of Israeli government action, equals racism and/or anti-semitism” is not only becoming tedious it is ultimately going to hurt your cause.

1. It’s not “criticism”. It’s blood libel.

While you’re looking up definitions and thinking about baseless accusations you might want to look into the definition of blood libel…. at what point did I accuse anyone of using human blood in any part of their religious rituals.

Once again, this insistance on redefining words and phrases to suit your point of view is going to come back and bite you on the ass one day shlemazl - if you keep up your floating definations how are people going to recognize the real thing if it comes along?

There is NOTHING in common between Hamas and the state of Israel.

Sure there is, they both use the Palestinian people as pawns to achieve their goals.

So, just to be clear: Stageleft is a racist according to the United Nations.

Gee, I had no idea that the bunker had the power to disrupt a state that is thousands of miles away to such a degree…. we promise to use this new found power in the service of good.

Incidentally, from a post a couple of weeks back, I noticed that you guys are big fans of Ron Paul. Does not surprise me in the least: you do have a lot of common ememies with Stormfront.

Because I used a quote of his in one of my posts? If I’m a “big fan” of every person I quoted I’m in a lot of fan clubs ain’t I? No wonder I don’t have time to do half the things I’d like to do.

Stormfront? You’re really grasping now ain’t ya shlemazl? Sit down, take a deep breath…. that’s it….. in with the good ….. out with the bad….. fell better yet? Now…. if ya drink have a good stiff belt of something strong (I’m partial to Glenfiddich but whatever ya got is probably good), and then go back and read what I said in that post. Do you see anything in there at all that makes you think I consider them a good, wholesome, social club? Or that I support them?

I’d like to think that your cut from a better strip of cloth than people like the Canadian Sentinel, Small Dead Animals, or Little Green Footballs - but rantings like these are making that difficult.

1. You may not consider prejudice against a nation to be racism, but others do (e.g. UN, see above). Whatever you call it - it’s disgusting and is exactly the same as any arbitrary discrimation against any group of people not because of their views but because of the way they are born.

So, one can’t say that it’s O’K for nations attacked by Nazi Germany to cut trade ties with the attacker or impose sanctions on South Africa, but that the same action is somehow breach of the Geneva Convention for Israel.

2. Expression “blood libel” is used figuratively to describe someone who is making wild and baseless accusations in deadly sins. For example your claim that Israel is breaking the Geneva convention or behaves like Hamas.

3. “Sure there is, they both use the Palestinian people as pawns to achieve their goals.”

Israel’s goal in imposing sanctions is to defend her citizens. Hamas has a declared goal to kill all Jews which it implements one missile, one bomb at a time. Sure, no difference there. What a moonbat!

4. “Because I used a quote of his in one of my posts?” All I am saying is that it is not surprising that you would be quoting Ron Paul and other moonbats. When it comes down to it, political extremes have remarkably similar views.

5. Don’t read Canadian Sentinel, so I cannot comment but SDA and lgf? Sure, I am from the same strip of cloth.

‘So, one can’t say that it’s O’K for nations attacked by Nazi Germany to cut trade ties…”

But remember, Stageleft, keep those dirty fingers off the word “holocaust”. Only Shlemazl is allowed to evoke it for cheap rhetocial effect. Got it?

“Expression “blood libel” is used figuratively…”

Ah. Figuratively. Remember, everything YOU say, Stageleft, will be parsed down to the last preposition for the tiniest of hint anything Shlem can deem objectionable…but he can accuse you of “blood libel” because he means it…”figuratively”. Of course.

Marky:

But the left in Israel pretty much agrees with what is being said here.

Actually, I have not seen the Hamas comparison before, not even among the loony left in Israel. Even if they did, every nation has a right for it’s own moonbats and scumbags on the right and on the left - Israel is no exception.

However if I were to spot an Israeli blogger who would regularly publish outlandish wild accusations singling out and targeting Canada , I would start wondering about him. In fact I would tell him to mind his own business and to stick his prejudices where the sun does not shine.

it does not have the right to settle civilians Not at all what is being discussed here. Remember, it’s Gaza? Remember the pullout? Remember Gilad Shalit and Sderot? Once I thought that settlements were a mistake, but that was before the pullout. Now I see why.

If you are implying that Gazans have a right to shell Sderot and bomb pizzerias because of settlements, then we have little to discuss. And remember, Israeli civilians were attacked even more prior to 1967.

That is actually a war crime. I think not, judge Marky Mark. The territories are in fact disputed - for sure they don’t belong to the countries that Israel captured them from. As for settlements… what about the Kurils? And Konegsberg? And Danzig? And Sudeten Germany? Parts of France? Nagorny Karabah? Yugoslavia? India/Pakistan?

You see, if you attack, then you’ve got to pay the consequences. Israel is just softer than most other victors, that’s all.

which they refer to as Judea and Samaria

You lost me there. That’s what everyone in Israel calls it. Is that some kind of a crime? For the cradle of Judean civilization has been called Judea for thousands of years. West Bank on the other hand is a brand new name, invented by Jordan to avoid the unpleasant association. Have you heard of La Manche? Them French are such extremists!

I would save those attacks for those who actually deserve them.

You may think that nobody displays bad faith other than those that call you a dirty Jew. I hold the view that anyone who deliberately singles out a group of people, declines them the rights he would accept for any other group of people and at the same time accuse them of unimaginable crimes they did not commit… has a touch of “bad faith”, wouldn’t you say?