Sweet Jeezus They Piss Me Off
In a statement about the truck bombs in Nineveh the White House issued a statement about
“barbaric attacks on innocent civilians,” and vowed to help Iraqi forces “beat back these vicious and heartless murderers,”
I’m not condoning the bombings, but I am wondering how whoever the White House chose to make that statement managed to choke out those words in light of the Haditha massacre, US troops taking turns in the gang raping a 14 year old Iraqi girl, killing her family, and then burning her body to hide the evidence, laughing at a teen Iraqi virgin who killed herself after she was forcibly sold to US troops for a little “spread ‘em baby, we love you long time” afternoon recreation, or any number of other crimes and atrocities committed by the great and wonderful forces of good also known as the military of the greatest nation on the face of the planet, United States of America.
You want animals, barbarians, and vicious heartless murderers? There’s just as many in Iraq wearing clothing issued by the US military and getting paid in US dollars as there are wearing anything else, and the country that backs them remains willfully blind and utterly uninterested in that.
Related links
The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness
The General’s Report
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Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps Now Terrorist Organization
The United States wants to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps, the country’s 125,000-strong elite military branch, as a “specially designated global terrorist.” This will allow the US to block assets and disrupt operations of businesses tha…
I should thank Right Truth for that trackback, what sort of dumb ass’d move is designating a portion of another countries military a “terrorist organization” anyway?
Maybe Iran can reciprocate and designate the US Marines a terrorist organization, they’ve committed enough atrocities to qualify haven’t they? Don’t they instill fear?
The US Air Forces would be a better bet though, killing women and children from 10,000 feet and 500 miles an hour is, IMO, designed to instill fear.
Oh, let’s not let anything like an investigation and actual legal prodeedings get in the way of spreading propoganda, shall we?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070809-1145-bn09haditha.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped0815parkeraug15,1,6230846.column
I’ll wait on the rest of the legal proceedings to declare the Haditha event to be what those who want America to always be the villain already say it is.
The rape/murder/coverup? Absolutely vicious, brutal and fully verified in a court of law after a full and complete investigation and prosecution.
The video? Non-verifiable, from the information presented. IOW, total bullshit as information. Heck, I could make a video claiming to be you and “confess” to horrendous “crimes” and if of similar quality as the one you present, could probably pass it off to anyone who disagrees with you as genuine. Complete bullshit.
Now, “You want animals, barbarians, and vicious heartless murderers? There’s just as many in Iraq wearing clothing issued by the US military and getting paid in US dollars as there are wearing anything else…”
Completely unsupported by the information you attach. Nothing but inflammatory bullshit. Let’s see, even IF all the B.S. you present above were true, then you’re still a couple of hundred short in body count equalling the events noted in the White House press release.
And every day, so it goes: continuing the millennnia-long blood fueds, tribal rivalries, bloody religious conflicts with terrorist acts committed by typical bloody-minded Islamic savages (what elese can one label those who revere and seek to emulate the pedophile, mass murderer, rapist and slaver, Mohammed, the Butcher of Medina?) kills far, far more non-combatants than the U.S. military have killed. And, frankly, every time someone conflates a body count of civilians killed by the U.S. by including those killed by the terrorists and those who WERE terrorists, it harms any reasonable argument for getting out of Iraq. Not saying you did that here (although in an earlier post asserting a “30% collateral damage” rate you certainly did do that very thing), of course, but the above citation of a fake or useless video, a “massacre” that is still in dispute (and of which two of the accused have already been found innocent) and one incident disgustingly similar to any weekend in Washington D.C. (OK, maybe not in Congress) does not make an argument.
Pull the other one.
And please, start making some reasonable arguments for getting out of Iraq. (You know, there are some, if you would listen to reasonable people or do some homework away from nutroots sites. Yeh, WaPo–sadly–frequently qualifies as “nutroots” material.)
The raqi adevnture is still wrong on many levels, but faking up bullshit to oppose it is stupid.
You know, David, I’m all for innocent until proven guilty, so you had my attention until you started with the hate speech. Which is truly, deeply, vile. Regardless of what background you’ve come from, someone has said similar about your loved ones; and the shocking thing is, we’re all human.
What Arwen said, David. If you’re going to pose as the voice of reason, you’re gonna have to keep the lid on the hysteria.
Actually David, if you had bothered to follow the links and read the information, there is more than adequate reason to believe what I said, the alternative of course is that you are in denial of atrocities committed by the occupation forces.
We can sit around and discuss who did what, to whom, and how many times, on what holy day of the week it might have been, and how the people of a region or country settle their internal disputes, but that accomplishes little more than another presentation of the, see, they’re worse than us defence, and if that’s all ya got (and that’s how it looks to me just now), ya got nothing.
There are, as you say, a multitude of reasons for getting out of Iraq, and I’m all for that, but you completely missed the point of the post didn’t you? That being the complete and utter hypocrisy that revolves around what they do verses what the self styled forces of good do - if you don’t think there is any hypocrisy in the White House statement feel free to make your case.
If you can do so without resorting to the they’re worse than us defence we might have something to discuss.
[...] Stageleft:. Life on the left side » Blog Archive » Sweet Jeezus They Piss Me Off [...]
Followed all your links. But I didn’t stop there, because stopping there was what you obviously wanted. I watched the unverifiable video that had all the hallmarks of fakery (do you know any of them?). Saw that neither you nor the site you linked to as a source had ANY information that would verify one single solitary word uttered on that video. Do some more homework. But this time do it honestly.
Hate speech? About the founder of Islam and his followers? Only facts, which, if you did your homework you’d recognize.
Here’s a simple little comparison:
Any so-called “Christian” who advocates (or practices) brutality (including mass murder, torture, rape and enslavement) of ANYONE because they do not follow the teachings of Christ is… living a contradiction, because such a person is denying the life and work of the founder of the religion they falsely claim to espouse.
Any Muslim who who advocates (or practices) brutality (including mass murder, torture, rape and enslavement) of ANYONE because they do not follow the teachings of Mohammed is… following the life and teachings of Mohammed, IOW, being a good Muslim.
It’s a plain and simple fact that’s obviuous to anyone who has taken a good look at Mohammed and read the Muslim’s “holy” writings. Not “hate speech” such as yours which falsely accuses U.S. military of crimes and labels the soldiers, sailors airmen and marines as war criminals en masse. No, what I said about Islam and Muslims is plain and simple fact.
Now, to you, facts are hate speech and lies are truth.
It figures.
Do you hear voices, Stage Left?
Errr…let’s see if I can connect the dots here.
Some of the teachings of Mohammed, like some of the sections of the Bible, espouse behaviours that are unacceptable today.
And therefore, Stageleft shouldn’t be angry about the murder and rape of Iraqi civilians.
Ummm….nope. Can’t make the connection.
“Do you hear voices, Stage Left?”
Sometimes he does.
The voice of Ibrahim Awad. The voice of a fourteen year old Iraqi girl raped and killed by Private Jesse Spielman. The voices from Haditha. More and more voices all the time.
I don’t think one person who (allegedly) raped someone (did you watch? did he tell you he did it?), violently whatever, can be compared to far more people (Muslim fascists) who actually are going around doing it in the name of Islam. and they are killing. torturing. Where is your equal condemnation of these millions of Muslims who at least think all this is right?
I am appalled at you people whoequate a very tiny few isolated criminals within good military of good country to Islamic fasists. It is stupid. You do not understand at all.
“I am appalled at you people whoequate a very tiny few isolated criminals within good military of good country to Islamic fasists. It is stupid. You do not understand at all.”
Heh. Cathy…you’re absolutely right. There IS no equation.
a) Some American soldiers have been convicted of murdering Iraqi civilians, and several other charges are pending. This is a true statement.
b) Some Muslims are murdering other people, including fellow Muslims, in the name of Islam. This is a true statement.
Those two facts, as you correctly note, have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Except, of course, for the folks who are (quite appropriately) uncomfortable with (a), and want to change the subject. You will note that it was not Stageleft who incorrectly drew the inappropriate parallel you so rightly reject.
Yeah Donald, I do.
I hear voices in the media telling me all sorts of things, some of those voices lie, they lied about things like Jessica Lynch, and they lied about things like Pat Tillman, and they lied about things like Abu Ghraib - so I don’t give a lot of credence to what they say these days.
Other voices tell different stories, some of those voices belong to people like Antonio Taguba, and people like the war vets, and sometimes they even come from average, ordinary, Iraqi, people. Those voices have yet to give me a reason not to believe them.
Cathy, as I said to David
Have you got anything other than ‘but they done worse and more times’ as a defence for your statements?
balbulican, IMO you didn’t go far enough in your comment. As valid as it is it does not even begin to address the tens upon tens of thousands of the dead, the crippled, or all the orphans, and widows, that the US tenderly refers to as “collateral damage”.
The White House and the administration that infects it can save their righteous indignation about the deaths of innocents for others - what is the difference between the innocent people who were killed by insurgents with exploding tanker trucks and those killed by American high explosives delivered from a fighter plane at 10,000 feet and going 300 miles an hour?
Do you think it makes any difference to the survivors of either who it was that pulled the trigger Cathy? Innocent men, women, and children laying dead or maimed on the pavement are dead men, women and children, regardless of who pulled the trigger.
Nonsense. Your purpose of this post is definately to draw a parallel between not just ‘Haditha’ soldier alleged to have raped and the Muslim monsters who chop off peoples heads and blow people up every day all over world. And there is many more of Muslim terrorists than of few criminals in American army.
I reject the ‘moral equivalence’ you have.
I think you see no difference between hate filled Muslim terrorists (thousands definately) and American army. I think you think terrorists same as American army. I disagree.
Americans good. Americans respect human rights of all people. Muslim fundamentalists very bad, no human rights tolerated. why do you not understand. Is this web site for propaganda purpose?
do you not understand Islam is dangerous because fundamentalists use it to make many many Muslims bad, hate different people and kill because Allah say to because people are not Muslims? There is much hate in Muslim world because Muslims must hate people who are not Muslims.
Islam also hates girls and women. Very bad for them. very intolerant religion. You not agree?
Well, let’s all agree that American troops murdering and torturing and raping folks is bad. Right? We agree?
And Muslim fundamentalists murdering and torturing and raping other Muslims, and non Muslims, is bad. Right? We agree?
There, wasn’t that easy? See how you can actually keep those two ideas in your head at the same time?
That is not the question I try to ask.
The question is that you think America and fundamentalist Islam are equally bad.
do you deny? If yes, which is worse? America or fundamentalist Islam. You think America equal to fundamentalist islam? Why or why not.
America bad because very selected few criminal soldiers do bad? Not logical. America good, tolerant. Just few bad soldiers who get punished hard. Islam has thousands of very bad people who do very bad because Islam says they must and they obey. And when Muslims do bad, they get praised and celebrated as heroes by other Muslims who think they right to do bad. America say Americans must tolerate, and Americans mostly do. Americans very very tolerant people. you not think so?
You think America is same as Islam? You think womens equality in America is no better than womens being treated like animals in IslaM?
Sorry, Cathy. You’re WAY off topic. As you pointed out, Evil Muslims and Evil Americans are not the same subject. I certainly understand why you’d rather talk about Evil Muslims than Evil Americans. However, that’s not the topic. Sorry.
you are very strict on this web site.
I guess when you don’t like what someone says, you get grumpy. I was told it was fun on this web site. ok to use bad words. sounded fun to me. I see it is not.
You are what they call ‘tight ass’.
Off topic ok. What will you do if I stay off topic? remove my comment?
i think I will go where people are tolerant of different views.
Too bad you are afraid of truth. When you do not like the truth, you say ‘off topic’. I see you afraid. Do not be afraid. truth is good for every one.
Embrace the truth as it sets free.
Heh. We’re not strict at all. Keep talking about anything you want. We won’t edit you, we won’t censor you, and we won’t ban you. But we will politely remind you that this thread is about about torture, rape and murder by American troops. For some reason, you seem to finding it a little difficult to focus on the topic, so I’ll just keep helping you to remember what the subject under discussion is in this thread.
Ok. I see.
But I say: you are cleverly polite in evading discussion you do not like. Very, very good. you must have much experience doing this.
Next time you will not be able to say ‘off topic’. I be more careful then.
And you will have to answer questions then.
Well, you see, “Cathy”, we’re used to folks who change the topic when it feel uncomfortable. They don’t want to talk about torture, rape and murder by American troops, and they try really hard, and repeatedly, to drag in other topics. Like you’ve been doing.
You’re quite right, I do have a lot of experience with people who attempt that, for sure. It happens pretty much every time anyone here is critical about any aspect of the American invasion and occupation. But we’re used to it.
So we just keep ignoring the attempts to derail the thread, and bringing the discussion back on topic.
Authoritarian Islam is similar in tactic to certain values of authoritarian American ideology. Authoritarian tactics usually end up in similar places, because there will always be dissent, and if you can’t convince it, whatyagonna do?
“We’re better than them” is a tried and true Tier One dehumanizing tactic. Barbarians, vermin, pigs, dogs, pussies, bitches, rapists, murderers, cannibals: regardless of what background you’re from, someone, somewhere, has said that of your particular race and/or ideology and/or religion and/or culture. If it’s not true of you that you’re less than human, chances are it’s not true of “them”.
>little more than another presentation of the, see, they’re worse than us defence, and if that’s all ya got (and that’s how it looks to me just now), ya got nothing.
Since there are unlikely to be any “us” or “them” who are complete innocents, comparisons (”worse than”, “better than”) are all we have or ever will have. If you aren’t prepared to compare groups - however you choose to identify and categorize them - by their laws, teachings, behaviour, doctrines, consistency, activity, passivity, etc, then you have no measurement that matters. If a measure of wrongdoing N >> M is irrelevant in the judgement of those responsible for N and M, then it doesn’t matter how large N becomes and there’s no compelling reason to minimize M since that group will always be qualitatively “equal to” those of N. In the set of 1 and 0 the only desirable objective is M=0, which does not and never will (in practical human terms) exist. But if you concede a spectrum of values for which M approaching 0 asymptotically is a good thing, you must also concede that the comparison of N and M is worthwhile and meaningful.
You are disgusting.
Now, Shlemazl…it’s true that lrC is a little raw and unsophisticated in his attempts to shift the focus of a thread - but “disgusting”? Too extreme. We try to show a little respect for each other here.
Show some respect for 250-500 innocent souls murdered in cold blood by “insurgents”.
Please spare me your cheap political points and comparisons with a few criminals in the US army.
No, you have misunderstood the question completely, as a matter of fact there is not even a question involved, there is a statement, and it is very straight forward.
The killing of innocents is wrong, and when you are responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent people, and when you are responsible for making cripples out of innocent people, and when you are responsible for turning innocent people into orphans and widows, you have no right to criticize others who do the same.
Do you agree or do you disagree? Explain your answer if you wish, but keep in mind that ‘they did worse and more often’ is not an answer that I find acceptable.
Torturing people is wrong, when you torture people you have no right to criticize others who torture people.
Do you agree or do you disagree? Explain your answer if you wish, but keep in mind that ‘they did worse and more often’ is not an answer that I find acceptable.
Wander as far off topic as you’d like Cathy, you’ll get a couple of reminders that you’re doing so, but the worst that’s gonna happen is that your wanderings will be ignored.
lrc: I am comparing direct and calculated actions and the results of those direct and calculated actions on innocent people. See my questions to Cathy Chong.
shlemazl: Spare me your righteous indignation about innocent civilians murdered in cold blood, it rings as hollow as the hypocritical statements out of the White House. The government you are backing has killed just as many in cold blood, and now, as it has done so many times in the past, puffs out it’s chest, uses them to score cheap political points, and talks about the atrocities committed by others when it has bombed residential neighbourhoods, killed wedding parties, used chemical and napalm like weapons on innocent people, turned millions into homeless refugees, and kidnapped christ knows how many people off the streets and sent them to be tortured in prisons scattered about the globe.
If people don’t like that list, or would prefer not to see it so they don’t have to acknowledge any of it, or don’t think that these atrocities should be talked about because of who is responsible for them, that’s just too damned bad - each and every one of those things happened shlemazl and who the fuck (there’s a bad word for ya Cathy Chong, right out of the horses mouth) showed any respect for the people that they happened to?
Oh, IrC. Way simpler than you’re making it. “Us” includes all those people who don’t put ideology before a human suffering. That’s “a” human, singular. “Us” includes people all over the planet, in every faith and ideology and government. I know lots of Islamic people who would never, ever, ever blow anyone up for Allah or anything else. They are the folks all over the planet who will help an enemy wounded, who will not kick a person while he is down, who will help where they can. Those people are part of my tribe, and they are everywhere.
It’s behaviour that’s problematic, not a particular group of people located in a conveniently bombable cluster. Every ideology has its authoritarians. Every religion. Every family. Evil is load balanced, it seems.
“Them” is all of “us” who’ve gotten lost, that the Shiny Idea and/or the Intense Rage is more important than the human getting his or her legs blown off. But they’re “us” too, and we’re them.
Very easy to catagorize.
For those of us who fall in the non-authoritarian camp, the legs blown off part is the deal breaker. Anyone willing to do the legs blown off thing are making the same mistake from whence all mistakes come: thinking of people in a utilitarian way.
The thing is, Islamic fundamentalists might want to kill me and my homo-supporting, women’s right’s loving, non-Allah-worshiping ways. You betcha!
Islamic fundamentalists are neither claiming me to be part of their “us”, nor using my tax dollars. The absolute worst they can do is kill me with a car bomb.
I’m a lot more afraid of someone using me as the excuse to blow someone else up than someone blowing me up. Rather be murdered than murderer. (Most rather be neither.)
See? Easy. Not how you value things, obviously. However, from my perspective, you’re taking that first step into dehumanzing, from whence all other evil humans do to one another springs.
I was thinking all night about this.
I think S. L. and B.need have much more open mind to what I, IrC, and Shlemazl say. They are very understanding of difference between good and evil and of real world around us. I think Balbulican and Stage Left have comprehension problem and difficult time understanding moral comparison so make wrong comparison. It is wrong to imply America no better than fundamentalist Islam. It is wrong to say America same because very few bad Americans do bad things. Wrong to equate very few to very many. Wrong to equate country that is good to religion that is bad.
I think this web site might be for propaganda purpose.
I think B. and S.L. afraid to understand truth. They comfortable with believing fictions. Truth for many is too hard. But no need be afraid of truth. Truth can not hurt people if people accept truth.
I also now sure I was not off topic. I was definitaly on topic, but not as simplistic as Stage Left and Balbulican wanted to be. I think they have trouble expanding their minds to improve understanding of real world.
I think I was said off topic only because B. and S.L. afraid of what I say and ask them. i was on topic as the issues and comparisons between American army and Muslim terrorists were made and I wanted to adress them with facts.
But B. and S.L not like that. Maybe afraid of loseing control over agenda, loseing control over thier propaganda communication. I think tactic of saying ‘off topic’ very much like Chinese government not tolerating any speach different from what they say ok.
I think saying i was off topic was Machiavelli manipulation. I was on topic. Only took advantage of opening, of aggressive ‘Americans no better than Muslim terrorist’ claim made in the post.
Please do not try to manipulate people. It not wise. They figure it out.
It’s always interesting to note how many of our guests find it impossible to tolerate discussion of rape and murder by American forces, isn’t it?
See, Stageleft isn’t making it up. It happened.
It’s not because American troops are any more prone to violence than troops from other countries. Quite the opposite: they’re among the best trained and best disciplined in the world. But atrocities inevitably happen in war. The decision to invade Iraq ensured that atrocities would occur…because they do. Women are raped, children are blown apart, men are shot by pissed off marines. That’s part of what you know will happen when you invade and occupy another country.
There are number of ways to deal with that, if you’re a fan of the war. Deny that it’s happening - rationalize it away with sophomoric logic games - lead the conversation away from the uncomfortable topic - point out that the other guys do it too - or climb up on a soap box and have a tantrum.
Thanks, friends, for the excellent illustration of evasion strategies you’ve so ably provided. And thanks for confirming SL’s point…that fans of the war are indifferent to the acts being committed in their name.
And Cathy…wander as far off topic as you want. Each digression just provides us with an opportunity to reiterate the main point. No problem.
It’s always interesting to note how many of our guests find it impossible to tolerate discussion of rape and murder by American forces, isn’t it?
Of course we shoud discuss criminal acts by rouge elements within the American forces.
However it has absolutely nothing to do with the mass murder in Iraq targeted at civilians and resulting from the “insurgents” strategy.
SL/B.
We do NOT know for sure that there was any massacre in Haditha.
You want to believe it is true. But it is only alleged. Where is proof? Allegation is not proof.
You probably believe in the massacre of Qana, which is proven false.
If it is proven for sure, I will certainly condemn individuals who are guilty. But you jump to conclusioins.
I see in post you condemn official for condemning terrorists. Ok.
But will you please show me any posts you did in this web site which have you condemning the Muslim terrorists and leaders who call American army monsters or call America bad? Say that they are hypocrite. Show my your outrage and disgust of the Muslim world. Show me that you are disgusted with all Muslim leaders and Muslims who commit, order to commit, and believe in and suport the Muslim atrocities all over world.
Prove that you do not only condemn America/American army/American officials who condemn Muslim terrorists. Prove that you also condemn Muslim world for what thousands and thousands of its Muslim people do thats inhuman in name of Islam and Allah.
Do you want Muslims to stop hating, hurting, murdering? Yes, you wish American army would not have war to stop them, but do you want Muslim world to stop hating and murdering peoples who are different from them?
Prove you do not discriminate against non Muslim peoples. I think you hate America and love Islamic fundamentalists. I think you hate ‘infidles” because Muslims say they are evil.
Prove, please.
I am not off topic. Not at all. I only address your post and its message and point. Do not say I off topic, please.
Yes, I say that all needless murder and rape is horrible. But please swear that you do not think America is ‘not better’ than Islamic world, which is very dangerous and you must understand this. you must understand that America only want to try to make sure good stays stronger than evil and that peopole like HItler, Stalin, Mao, Ahmadinajad, Nasralah, etc., must be opposed by force to stop them from taking over world and spreading evilness. Yes, this is off topic, but where is your sense of humanity? You are not evil, yes? please take this as opportunity to say for sure you hate all evil. that you want to prevent evil from winning, that America always stops evildoers just as America is prosecuting its own soldiers who are accused of illegal murder and rape.
What will it hurt you to do this?
“Yes, I say that all needless murder and rape is horrible.”
Finally. Thanks.
As for the rest of your stuff…the suggestion that Stageleft or I “hate” America is incorrect (and quite silly), as is your suggestion that we “love” Islamic fundamentalists. I sure hope you’re relieved.
My mind is quite open, it’s one of the reasons that I don’t employ comment moderation or censor comments. What we have is a difference of opinion, you, lrC, and shlemazl, see the death, crippling and maiming, of innocent Iraqis by the American occupation forces in a different light than you see the death crippling and maiming of innocent Iraqis by insurgents - I see both as the death crippling and maiming of innocent Iraqis.
You, lrC, and shlemazl, appear quite willing to accept the horrors perpetrated on innocent Iraqi people by the US occupation, but view the horrors perpetrated on innocent Iraqi people by the insurgents as, well, horrors.
No, you are unwilling to acknowledge the magnitude of the death, harm, and destruction, the occupation forces, by their willful and calculated actions, are causing to the people of Iraq. That death, harm, and destruction is every bit as much a truth as the death, harm, and destruction caused by the insurgency by their willful and calculated actions.
Are you still unwilling to address either of the questions I asked you earlier Cathy?
What do you call employing chemical weapons, napalm like weapons, and cluster bombs, in residential areas? Are the innocent people who were killed by those methods any less dead than the people killed by the truck bombs that started this discussion? Is becoming dead because of high tech methods employed by a [supposedly] civilized government somehow less dead than being killed by a truck bomb?
What about the American air strike strategy that has resulted in the death, crippling, or maiming of thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands, innocent Iraqi civilians since the beginning of this war?
You think I hate America? My American friends and relatives will find that quite amusing when I tell them.
Very good at denying, you guys,
SL, you say “What do you call employing chemical weapons, napalm like weapons, and cluster bombs, in residential areas? Are the innocent people who were killed by those methods any less dead than the people killed by the truck bombs that started this discussion? Is becoming dead because of high tech methods employed by a [supposedly] civilized government somehow less dead than being killed by a truck bomb?”
I say: You do not understand at all.
Again, moral equivalence. I think you incapable of understanding differences between the ‘whys’ of each side in doing the things they do. You seem to think all violence by all sides is always equally un-ethical and im-moral. You are wrong. But in free world, ok to not agree.
I bet you would have equated the Allies response to Hitler, Hirohito and Musolini to the actions of those three monsters.
I bet you think the response to 9/11 is equal to 9/11 itself. I’m sure you have “reasons” for it.
I bet you think bombing Iran will be worse than Ahmadinajad promising to kill all Jews, destroy Israel, destroy America, kill all “Anglo-Saxons” everywhere while brazenly building nuclear bombs and missiles.
You, SL and B, worry me and scare me. I hope there are not to many like you.
I hope I am wrong about you and that you do not think that violence to stop violence is same as violence in name of Islam, Nazism, Communism. I hope you not thinking that Allies equally bad and evil as Axis, that Bush equally bad and evil as Saddam, Taliban, Iranian government. I sincerely hope you are not of opinion that it’s all same, that you have reverse concept between good and evil and mix them up.
Re: “Some of the teachings of Mohammed, like some of the sections of the Bible, espouse behaviours that are unacceptable today.â€
The only difference
,you moron,is that 99.9999% of Christians in Christian countries do not stone adulterers anymore, whereas 99.9999% of Muslims in Muslim countries still do.Christians ignore the barbaric parts of the Bible, but Muslims glorify the barbaric parts of the Koran. That, my dear deluded friend, is the difference between Christianity and Islam. So if you think the two religions are even remotely similar, well, that dog don’t hunt.
BTW, I am an Atheist.
Cathy, in order to be taken seriously, you have to at least pretend to engage in discussion. Simply reiterating the same old cliches again and again doesn’t really do much except get boring.
So…what measures do you think could minimize the risk of American troops going “rogue” for the remainder of the occuption?
Cathy, its interesting how you accuse SL and Balb of moral relativism, when in fact they are asserting the exact opposite. They were making the point that a dead civilian in Iraq is a dead civilian in Iraq, no matter whether he was killed by a truck bomb, or indiscriminate American bombing. In either case, his death should not have happened.
The American invasion of Iraq is nothing like the Allied response in WWII. In WWII, the Allies fought in Europe and Asia in response to agression by the Axis. In fact, many would argue that the Allies acted too late, and should have responded as soon as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia. In the case of Iraq, there was no agression on the part of Hussein leading up to the Iraq war, and negotiations were proceeding, and the justifications used to convince the American people were shady AT BEST.
In short, there was no moral or apparent national security justification to invade Iraq this time. By doing so, the US has further destabilized a region that might have been stabilized, or at least improved, following the Afghan invasion. If anything, the US fucked up by invading Iraq. Fucked up royally. And as such, they and their defenders are utter hypocrites to attempt to justify the killing of innocent Iraqis, as long as its by Americans.
innocent Iraqi civillians killed by Americans = very bad
innocent Iraqi civillians killed by insurgents = very bad
–> innocent Iraqi civillians killed = very bad
There’s your equivalence.
Bernie, nice try. Sorry, we realize you’d much rather talk about how awful Muslims are than the slaughter of civilians in Iraq. But that would be a different thread.
Although I do enjoy the spectacle someone assert, apparently seriously, that “99.9999% of Muslims in Muslim countries” stone adulterers. Heh. I love intellectual rigor, don’t you?
Kathy #36.
Agree, accept that surely even the likes of SL understand the difference between blowing up truck bombs in the middle of a peaceful Yazidi village and fighting Al-Qaeda in Fallujah. It’s just that all they really care about is making cheap political points whether they make any sense or not. It’s crazy, really. Sometimes I wonder whether western apologists for terrorism are in part responsible for “insurgents” choosing the crazy strategy of killing as many Iraqi civilians as they possibly can.
Heh. Cathy and Shlemazl, have a nice chat agreeing how awful SL is. He’s made his point - at least to the folks who are still thinking.
>“Us†includes all those people who don’t put ideology before a human suffering. That’s “a†human, singular.
Then “Us” is the null set. I have yet to learn of a person who without exception subordinates all of his pet ideals if the possibility of one, singular, person’s suffering results. Everyone has at least one principle or idea or policy - generally many more - for which he is prepared to ignore or compromise the welfare of at least one other person. It doesn’t matter how deserving or undeserving one believes that other to be. If your ideal is to bring good government to those who don’t have it, people will suffer. If your ideal is non-interference, people will suffer. If your ideal is to intervene between those in conflict, people will suffer. I suppose in a frictionless ethical universe there might exist a person who does nothing of consequence and refuses to accept the concept of a sin of omission, but I can’t imagine a concrete example.
>It’s behaviour that’s problematic
Behaviour is in part influenced and learned and therefore subject to persuasion and indoctrination. So how much proselytizing is done, how widely is it heeded, and how strongly is it met with counterargument? Ask those questions of any group.
>Evil is load balanced, it seems.
If you mean it exists in some quantity wherever there are moral agents, then I accept it as axiomatic. However, it is not “load-balanced” in any sense of the way I understand (as an engineering term of art).
>For those of us who fall in the non-authoritarian camp
What does that mean, exactly? Is that the camp of all persons who refuse to impose anything on any other person, whether it be at one’s own hand or sanitized through a ballot box and hiding behind a majority opinion? The entire “progressive” spectrum is authoritarian; those willing to impose their preferences on others can be no other way.
>thinking of people in a utilitarian way.
That includes all flavours of socialism and every person who believes in the assertion of a collective right over an individual right: every measure of the many against the one is utilitarian.
You’re trying to set yourself apart - to be “better than” - by pretending to absolutes (the non-authoritarian camp, or those who never think of others in a utilitarian way). You want to measure yourself by being the “0″ (good) in “1 vs 0″. Reality is that you can only compare positions on a spectrum. My point is simply that a human can approach those ideals but never reach them.
>lrC, and shlemazl, see the death, crippling and maiming, of innocent Iraqis by the American occupation forces in a different light than you see the death crippling and maiming of innocent Iraqis by insurgents - I see both as the death crippling and maiming of innocent Iraqis.
That is hardly surprising, considering one of your opening statements:
>There’s just as many in Iraq wearing clothing issued by the US military and getting paid in US dollars as there are wearing anything else, and the country that backs them remains willfully blind and utterly uninterested in that.
You seem to not care about the motivation/intentions of the moral agents involved. Is that a correct assessment?
The difference between what you see and I see is that I don’t believe the entire United States, the entire US government, or the entire US armed forces are wilfully blind and utterly uninterested. I draw a distinction between those who make a reasonable effort to adhere to modern legal interpretations of chivalric codes which have existed for centuries, and those who make no effort to do so and have in some cases explicitly denounced any desire or responsibility to do so.
It is possible that one or more of the soldiers who have murdered or raped genuinely believed that he had some sort of dispensation granted by a higher authority (in spite of the Law of Land Warfare training he received throughout his career, in spite of written rules of engagement, and in spite of the occasional reminders a soldier receives through poster campaigns, orders, and briefings). His advocates would, were that belief established as bona fide in our courts of law, probably mount a successful defence of insanity. Realistically, the soldiers who have done wrong knew at the time it was wrong but failed to muster sufficient moral courage to overcome fatigue, rage, and peer pressure. I distinguish between them and those who believe non-combatants are legitimate targets, or that there is a dispensation for murder or rape depending on one’s perceptions of honour, propriety, or the status of another person with respect to gender, culture, or religious belief.
I believe it is fair to describe a profound indifference to chivalric codes as barbaric, which in turn can not be equated to an incomplete but mostly successful adherence to chivalric codes, and not be hypocritical in doing so.
Balbulican, that was not called for. I detect arrogance and condescending.
You dismiss what I say as “old cliches”. Arrogant. I neaver hear what I say above before in form of “cliches”.
I do not think your readers who automatic agree with you and get your suggestive and manipulative messages (please do not deny), are thinking. You feed them “thoughts” very cleverly. You very special person to have ability to manipulate people like this. But it not ethical. I think you paid to do this.
Yes. SL made his point. And it clearly that America is no better than the Islamic terrorists. I reject your claim I do not understand because SL point very clear, not mistakable. You think I stupid enough to let you mess with my head, but it not going to work. You think I stupid because I am woman? Because I am Chinese? Or (I think this most likely) because I do not agree? I think this web site (and you) is definitaly for propaganda purpose and that someone pay you to do it. You to good at doing this and spend to much time at this to not think so.
I note also you pretend to be intellectual. And you imply we who disagree stupid, not intellectual. It show your idealogy very well. You “left” people think you smart because so many other “left” people think same way and give you praise for what you say.
You become not polite when you fail to make people agree.
I think you know truth but do not speak it. Because someone pay you to lie. You use smartness for money gain, I think, not for telling truth. But I understand that money hard to say no to.
No offense. But you are very aggresive. can not complain if people criticize your position and behavior. You bring it on self. I pray for you. I hope you heal. It never to late to change, to repent for sin.
Thank you Shlemazl. You do not get manipulated by SL/B. And you are honest. You understand real world.
Maybe this honesty rub off someday on SL/B and they abandon lying and manipulation. There is always hope. All people can change even if many do not and stay in wrong way.
For now they start insulting when they fail to get our agreement. It is unfortunate.
Thanks, “Cathy”. As I said above, you’re simply repeating yourself. You’ve provided no new ideas to discuss. Check out lrC to see how grown ups talk to each other.
Oh, and “Cathy”? About that exceptionally fake pidgin? Don’t bother anymore, okay? It was amusing initially, but you’re about as convincing as Yul Brynner in “The King And I”. You don’t do it very well. And of course, the closer you get to replication the hilarious accusations that we’ve grown to know and love from other venues, the clearer it becomes who you actually are. Heh.
the clearer it becomes who you actually are.
Not another conspiracy theory! So, who is “Cathy”? George Bush?
Not that interesting, I’m afraid.
No messing with heads going on here Cathy, just questions - apparently some of them make you uncomfortable, that’s a good thing, really. Personally I like it when people pose questions that make me question what I think or believe. As balbulican said, check out some of what lrC has to say, we rarely agree, but at least he does more than recycle the same old talking points.
I don’t necessarily think you are stupid at all, you’re either (IMO), (a) unwilling to admit uncomfortable truths, or (b) you’ve been taken in by comfortable truths. I know some very intelligent women, hell, I married one don’t ‘cha know…. and unless you can point me to a realistic study that says any one ethnic group is/is not, more intelligent than another I’m just going to have to consider that “because I am Chinese” comment to be a deflection attempt.
Absolutely, I don’t deny that, and I’m really glad we can agree on something….. I do so hate it when visitors find absolutely no common ground with the bunker.
Propaganda: prop·a·gan·da - [prop-uh-gan-duh] noun: particular doctrines or principles propagated by an individual, an organization, or a movement.
Yup, I think that pretty well covers it.
I wish!! By the way, have you clicked a Google Ad yet, every little bit helps.
Thank you, we appreciate the compliment.
I am insulted by Mr. Balbulican.
Yes, my English may not be perfect, Mr. Balbulican but that does not mean you can make fun. It means you are mean spirited
I see also you do not deny being anti Chinese. It worries. To be anti Chinese is racism. Racism is very very bad.
And you with your rude words and paranoia and denying and try to confuse and to distract means you are propagandist. i still think you get paid to do this web site.
How do I know you ever tell truth? Too hard to believe your words.
And I do not get my opinion from any where but in my own head. I have own opinion. You just do not like. so you say I copy other peoples opinion. Not true.
You think you smarter than everyone. That is arogance.
And thank you Stage Left for confess to running propaganda web site. I knew i was right.
I hope you put disclaimer near top of web site to warn visitors you do propaganda.
Thanks for playing, “Cathy”. Come back when you have something interesting to say…preferably under your usual pseudonym.
I am Cathy Chong. You are paranoid to think every one has false name.
And thank you for admiting that you are ‘playing’ on this site and you are not for being taken to serious.
Nothing wrong with playing and having fun. It is ok. You very lucky to not live in country that is not free. But it sad you take for granted while many many millions of persons have no freedom like you have.
Yup. Whatever. Yawn.
You can laugh and mock, but I happen to know Balbulican has been OUTED as BOTH a SECRET COMMUNIST SPY of the SOVIET UNION and a SECRET AGENT of the CHINESE GOVERNMENT. And probably working COVERTLY for AL QAEDA and possibly HILLARY CLINTON TOO! THIS IS NOT a JOKE! (Sorry, my caps key got stuck there for a second.)
I say, what ho, pip pip, Old Balby a communist spy? Nonsense, old chap. I am very British, as you can tell, and I can assure you that Balb is just as reliable as Big Ben. Knew the fellow back in the days of the Jade Lily Cafe, don’t you know, when I serving with Her Majesty’s Forces in Inhjah. (Did I mention I am very British, jolly right?) Decent chap altogether. Cheerio.
No, is true, I swearing it. I am Russian, as you can tell from poor English, please to excuse. Am former KGB Paymaster, and have been leave many great bags roubles for Stageleft and evil henchman Balbulican at entry to famous bunker. Have seen secret telegrams to Kremlin and Beijing with own eyes. Naive westerners allow such no good persons to subvert precious democracry, which we do not have in Russia, my country. I mention Russia? Please to be waking up, foolish west, to snake you cradle in breast! (Sorry to use offensive lady body-part words, but feel very strongly about this).
Begorrah, sure and it’s Molotov that has the right of it. In me time with the Provos, many’s the night I seen them two lads runnin’ the border between Cork and Belfast (did I mention I was Irish, begob?) Cold, steely eyed avatars of evil, they was, a nasty pair of buckos to be sure.
And yer woman Cathy Chang points out the wicked cleverness of the two. Daymons from hell that they are, they manage to:
a) “Get paid for running an evil propaganda website”, while at the same time the cheeky buggers
b) “admit that they are playing and not to be taken seriously?”
Now, there’s some would say that those two ideas don’t entirely work together…which just shows the devil’s in the lads, as me sainted father Paddy O’Shaughnessy used to say (did I mention I was Irish?).
Top of the marnin’ to yez, now.
i see you invite diverse peoples to comment on your web site and they accept. This is good. It help demonstrate you are tolerant of different peoples. Very very good. Maybe you not bad people like i did think.
And Mr McGuire, my name is spelled Chong. No a in Chong.
And back to early accuse against me. i, and shlemazl and irc do not fear discuss of any one who do evil act. We only want point that this post is anti America propaganda which seek to equate America to Islam just because one American soldier may have done bad things. It wrong to do so, because Islam does bad on purpose and many thousands Muslims very very hateful of different peoples because they told to hate non Muslims. Islam say Muslims must do bad or else so many do bad. America is freedom. is tolerance. Equality. In America people always told be tolerant, accept differences so most Americans very tolerant. Islam not like that. Islam say hate non Muslims, kill non Muslims. Yes. Read Qoran to see for your self. Many many clerics tell followers hate and go kill. They say women bad, must wear bag on head, must be beaten. Very scary for me, a woman. That is Islam. Big difference!
That is all. Thank you very very much for allow me to make point you do not like.
Well, I gotta say I’m a bit worried about all this, Miss Kong. If you really think these here commies are being paid off to run this here propaganda site, we’d sure as heck like to know about it.
Who do y’all figure is behind these jokers? The Russkies? The Chinks? Al Qaeda? All three?
No need to thank me Cathy Chong, but you make it sound like propaganda is a bad thing - we’ve all got our particular doctrines or principles that we think are worth seeing the light of day, and even discussing. Don’t you? Heck, doing what you are doing here makes you a propagandist - welcome to the club.
Unlike a few other sites I could name we quite enjoy differing views here, I could name you a couple of upper-right-quadrant wing-nut places were arguing with the author(s) like that would have seen you banned 5 or 6 comments ago.
Intolerance is such a pitiful thing don’t you think?
Didn’t you read any other of the things I mentioned Cathy? Is not dropping napalm like substances and cluster bombs in residential areas bad? No matter who you are?
Is not killing tens of thousands of of innocent people bad, no matter who you are?
Is not torturing people bad, no matter who you are?
Is not rendering millions of people homeless bad, no matter who you are?
Is not creating hundreds of thousands of orphans, cripples, and widows, a bad thing, no matter who you are?
I am not anti-American, I am most certainly anti-this-American-government, anti-George-Bush, and anti this American governments policies, and make no bones about any of that.
Nothwithstanding your bluster in comment # 63, SL, I would like to call your attention to comment # 62.
Very hurtful to Chinese people:
The comment in question has a racist slur. Please delete that slur. The law compels you to do so if you want avoid costly penalty.
It is punishable with fine up to $10,000 if (not if; when) Canadian Human Rights Commission finds you guilty of allowing clear racist slur to stay on your site.
You sure no one at all will complain to CHRC about your site?
Your case is open and shut.
They back off Free Dominion false complaint, but this case not false. You have slur word against Chinese people on your site.
Your policy of not editing/censoring is stupid and potentially expensive for you.
Also you say to click on Google Ads. That is violation of rules of doing business with Google Ads. You not allowed to implore visitors to click on ads.
You definitaly prove that liberals do not care about rules and laws and may think you untouchable by court because you are fellow progressive extremist. You may be right. Because courts corrupt and will discriminate in favor of liberals no matter what.
Think about that.
Heh. For the dwindling handful still amused by this little charade, “Cathy’s” last post provides four specific clues as to his real identify. (That’s right, “his”.) Two have to do with this person’s familiar obsessions: one is a spelling mistake: and one is a particular sentence construction. Have fun.
Does that mean you’re not going to answer any of the questions I posed Cathy Chong?
Imagine my surprise…..
So you will leave this racist slur up on your site?
you are going to leave illegal, hateful, harmful, racist word on your site?
You do not fear criminal consequence for hate speach?
You do not fear exposure as racists?
You know leaving it up makes you racist and criminal subject to prosecution?
You do not think so?
Up to you. Some one might report racist slur on your site to CHRC.
Yup (we will), yup (we will), nope (we don’t), nope (we don’t) , nope (it doesn’t), nope (we don’t think so), and…fortunately, as card carrying leftists, we have nothing to fear from the CHRC, who only persecute conservatives. The CHRC is, of course, our valuable ally and co-conspirator in our pursuit of world dominination by communists, jihadis, gays and lesbians, anarchists, pedophiles, serial killers and rap musicians. I’m astonished that a political observer of your perspicacity was unaware of this.
I did not know for sure that that the case, that CHRC is corrupt agency to intimidate people who not leftist and that it let leftists be racist, intolerant and mean spirited.
I was told and it make sense because of what I see happen and not happen and to who but wanted to see for my self. So I come here. Bait you. You fall for bait, get stupid.
I not stupid. you stupid.
Thank you for confirming what I am told.
Will be very very helpful for people who know truth and want to prove CHRC is corrupt agency.
Maybe government review this agency. Every thing invented by all governments and funded by tax payer must be review. Must be forced prove it doing what it say it do.
If CHRC proven to be fake, to take away peoples rights, then CHRC must be shut down and replaced with real agency like Revenue department or not replaced but real courts must do real job of enforceing law and constitution.
After all, CHRC is not legitimate court. It illegal ‘court’. It never follow rule of law, never allow accusee to defend self. Rule of evidence ignored. Only single person decide if accusee guilty. It like Chinese Communist “court”. You do agree?
you think it funny. But not funny. Only fool not take serious.
I have question: You believe we can say anything? Even if offend and hurt people? You believe that law against ‘hate speach’ is wrong? You believe this law unconstitutional? That it oppress people? that it take away rights? If so, then why you not do post and promote widely on internet to abolish ‘hate speach’ laws?
Nut shell. You against ‘hate speach’ laws? You think it ok to express hate toward anyone in public? You think all racist slurs ok? you think ‘f’ word to describe homo sexual peoples ok to use any time no matter how it hurt homo sexual peoples feelings? You agree people have right to say any thing they want without fear being attacked by illegal agency created for political purpose?
Please answer. Serious.
Oh, DARN. I went and let the cat out of the bag. Cathy, do me a favour and don’t tell anyone, okay? They really are an important cog in our plot for world domination, and without their covert assistance in disrupting all that is right and good, it’s going to take us an extra couple of months, and I was hoping to take a little time off this fall…you know, visit the Kremlin, pick up bribe money in Beijing, overthrow a couple of Latin American democracies…the usual holiday.
Say, I was just wondering - do you know about the terrific work being done by Canadian Sentinel? He’s every bit as vigilant, insightful and grammatical as you, and I’ll be he could use another set of watchful eyes on the evil leftist world.
you try to make fun of serious thing.
It not work.
To be funny and to make silly statements does not mean it not true that you be in trouble for racist slur word on your web site. There is law aginst this.
Racism and intolerance very very bad and you think it funny.
You want for me not tell about your web site and anti-Chinese slur you keep up. But I can not be quiet. Must expose all bigots and haters. No mater who they are.
Very very stupid to have illegal racist slur words on your web site.
Bring trouble in future for you. You not immune. Up to you.
Your fake shtick is a bore, your threats are silly, and, based on the absence of anything of substance in your comments, I’m afraid you’re an idiot. Sorry, but you just don’t amuse me any more. Bye now.
Your humility very, very impressing.
I can feel the love on this web site.
I see much, much open-ness and tolerance.
Very very impressing.
This web site will definately go many many places and bring you much much wisdom and happyness.
Do not pay attention to those scary right wingers who say this web site full of hate and intolerance and propaganda. They idiots.
You very very smart people. You should be kings and queens of the world. Or maybe just be happy to be queens.
Oh, dear. See, you’re doing it again. Too much complex English idiom mixed in with the fake pidgin. And the persona is wildly inconsistent.
Ann Coulter was right:
The essense of being a liberal is the absolute conviction that there is one set of rules for oneself and another, entirely different, set for everyone else.
You have provided the proof that Ms. Coulter is right.
You have clearly indicated that it’s ok for you to be racist, but not for others.
Maybe someone needs to clean her sidebar again… ;)
That’s better. It wasn’t a very convincing performance, I’m afraid.
The “performance” is irrelevant.
Oh, I quite agree. Like the comments.
And like this blog.
I’m afraid your participation belies the credibility of that assertion.
I’m afraid you’re fullashit, pal.
And I’m afraid I’m sufficiently familiar with your incessant, cloying pseudointellectual pomposity to know that artsyfartsily belaboring things as you’re wont to do will dazzle the simple-minded (like your undyingly loyal winged monkeys herein who never uttered a peep of shock when you wrote that hateful, intolerant, Sinophobic racial epithet and refused to delete it) but will not make you any less fullashit.
I realize that you love to debate stuff. I, however, don’t debate for the sake of debating. I may have once thrilled in the battle for the purpose of honing skill and just having a good time, but, you see, real grownups actually grow up, rather than insisting on staying the same, like yourself and other liberal-progressives. Real grownups aren’t liberal-progressives. Real grownups aren’t afraid to change when such change is warranted, regardless of how difficult such change may be.
And you liberal-progressives are in desperate need of change… of attitude, of your refusal to be real, your dishonesty, your lack of credibility, of integrity, your selfish hedonism, your arrogant double-standard-practicing and much more. I’m afraid I see you folks staying the same as time marches on. That is why the left is such a mess, unwilling to learn from history, unwilling to face reality bravely, unwilling to stop, think long and hard to understand complex matters…
I laugh when I watch the left self-destruct and not realize what it’s doing. I watch Layton, May, Dion, Clinton, Pelosi, Obama… I watch their supreme leader, George Soros, fall into a deep hole and attempt to levitate out thereof by launching his apparatus into conspiracy theory about the government plotting to nuke the country…
Of course, you folks will carry on in the stubborn belief that progressivism is infallible and that non-progressives will automatically self-destruct and be defeated.
You people seem to worship something; not a god, but a dogma created by mere mortals. So be it.
That’s why I say that this progressive blog is irrelevant.
Hmm. 18 more, and we break 100 on this thread. That’ll be cool.
Oh, do grow up. A hundred comments on a thread? Big whoop!
Guess that makes seventeen more. Time to release the winged monkeys to finish the job!
100 would be cool Balb.
Hopefully we won’t have to endure any more of the largest collection of straw men, red herrings, ad hominem and every other fallacy laden comments ever seen in one post again.
My bad. THAT is the thanks we get for trying to see the good in people. Sigh.
On another note [relating to the self-hedonism snark above], have I missed a memo around here lately? When did we get into self hedonism? Sounds wonderful! I need to spend more time around here for sure.
Nearing 100, eh?
Me so horny. Love you long time.
Getter closer…
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
woo hoo! Thanks Cathy and Smarter than Balbie! TAKE ‘ER HOME!
Well, I may as well help reach the #100 mark.
Self-hedonism? How does that differ from plain ol’ regular hedonism?
I might be missing out on some wonderful pleasurable experiences!
That would be as opposed to “selfless hedonism” in which you shamelessfuly pursue pleasure on behalf of others (I guess).
89! Join me, brothers and sisters, in the Drive For 95!!
Why don’t the administrators of this blog remove the racial epithet?
Are they unaware of the laws against spreading hate against minorities? If they know, why don’t they care? Are they racists?
Wow - well done… this thread has helped me disperse a solid 45 minutes of my evening and a full cup of tea.
The chinese pidgin was hilarious - ever showing just a bit more leg… and then what a crescendo!
I hope to see “Kathy” more often… if he cares to come out of Mom’s basement more often, that is….
Anyway, nicely done - great fun.