Oh, let’s not let anything like an investigation and actual legal prodeedings get in the way of spreading propoganda, shall we?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070809-1145-bn09haditha.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped0815parkeraug15,1,6230846.column

I’ll wait on the rest of the legal proceedings to declare the Haditha event to be what those who want America to always be the villain already say it is.

The rape/murder/coverup? Absolutely vicious, brutal and fully verified in a court of law after a full and complete investigation and prosecution.

The video? Non-verifiable, from the information presented. IOW, total bullshit as information. Heck, I could make a video claiming to be you and “confess” to horrendous “crimes” and if of similar quality as the one you present, could probably pass it off to anyone who disagrees with you as genuine. Complete bullshit.

Now, “You want animals, barbarians, and vicious heartless murderers? There’s just as many in Iraq wearing clothing issued by the US military and getting paid in US dollars as there are wearing anything else…”

Completely unsupported by the information you attach. Nothing but inflammatory bullshit. Let’s see, even IF all the B.S. you present above were true, then you’re still a couple of hundred short in body count equalling the events noted in the White House press release.

And every day, so it goes: continuing the millennnia-long blood fueds, tribal rivalries, bloody religious conflicts with terrorist acts committed by typical bloody-minded Islamic savages (what elese can one label those who revere and seek to emulate the pedophile, mass murderer, rapist and slaver, Mohammed, the Butcher of Medina?) kills far, far more non-combatants than the U.S. military have killed. And, frankly, every time someone conflates a body count of civilians killed by the U.S. by including those killed by the terrorists and those who WERE terrorists, it harms any reasonable argument for getting out of Iraq. Not saying you did that here (although in an earlier post asserting a “30% collateral damage” rate you certainly did do that very thing), of course, but the above citation of a fake or useless video, a “massacre” that is still in dispute (and of which two of the accused have already been found innocent) and one incident disgustingly similar to any weekend in Washington D.C. (OK, maybe not in Congress) does not make an argument.

Pull the other one.

And please, start making some reasonable arguments for getting out of Iraq. (You know, there are some, if you would listen to reasonable people or do some homework away from nutroots sites. Yeh, WaPo–sadly–frequently qualifies as “nutroots” material.)

The raqi adevnture is still wrong on many levels, but faking up bullshit to oppose it is stupid.

What Arwen said, David. If you’re going to pose as the voice of reason, you’re gonna have to keep the lid on the hysteria.

Followed all your links. But I didn’t stop there, because stopping there was what you obviously wanted. I watched the unverifiable video that had all the hallmarks of fakery (do you know any of them?). Saw that neither you nor the site you linked to as a source had ANY information that would verify one single solitary word uttered on that video. Do some more homework. But this time do it honestly.

Hate speech? About the founder of Islam and his followers? Only facts, which, if you did your homework you’d recognize.

Here’s a simple little comparison:

Any so-called “Christian” who advocates (or practices) brutality (including mass murder, torture, rape and enslavement) of ANYONE because they do not follow the teachings of Christ is… living a contradiction, because such a person is denying the life and work of the founder of the religion they falsely claim to espouse.

Any Muslim who who advocates (or practices) brutality (including mass murder, torture, rape and enslavement) of ANYONE because they do not follow the teachings of Mohammed is… following the life and teachings of Mohammed, IOW, being a good Muslim.

It’s a plain and simple fact that’s obviuous to anyone who has taken a good look at Mohammed and read the Muslim’s “holy” writings. Not “hate speech” such as yours which falsely accuses U.S. military of crimes and labels the soldiers, sailors airmen and marines as war criminals en masse. No, what I said about Islam and Muslims is plain and simple fact.

Now, to you, facts are hate speech and lies are truth.

It figures.

Errr…let’s see if I can connect the dots here.

Some of the teachings of Mohammed, like some of the sections of the Bible, espouse behaviours that are unacceptable today.

And therefore, Stageleft shouldn’t be angry about the murder and rape of Iraqi civilians.

Ummm….nope. Can’t make the connection.

I don’t think one person who (allegedly) raped someone (did you watch? did he tell you he did it?), violently whatever, can be compared to far more people (Muslim fascists) who actually are going around doing it in the name of Islam. and they are killing. torturing. Where is your equal condemnation of these millions of Muslims who at least think all this is right?

I am appalled at you people whoequate a very tiny few isolated criminals within good military of good country to Islamic fasists. It is stupid. You do not understand at all.

Yeah Donald, I do.

I hear voices in the media telling me all sorts of things, some of those voices lie, they lied about things like Jessica Lynch, and they lied about things like Pat Tillman, and they lied about things like Abu Ghraib - so I don’t give a lot of credence to what they say these days.

Other voices tell different stories, some of those voices belong to people like Antonio Taguba, and people like the war vets, and sometimes they even come from average, ordinary, Iraqi, people. Those voices have yet to give me a reason not to believe them.

Nonsense. Your purpose of this post is definately to draw a parallel between not just ‘Haditha’ soldier alleged to have raped and the Muslim monsters who chop off peoples heads and blow people up every day all over world. And there is many more of Muslim terrorists than of few criminals in American army.

I reject the ‘moral equivalence’ you have.

I think you see no difference between hate filled Muslim terrorists (thousands definately) and American army. I think you think terrorists same as American army. I disagree.

Americans good. Americans respect human rights of all people. Muslim fundamentalists very bad, no human rights tolerated. why do you not understand. Is this web site for propaganda purpose?

do you not understand Islam is dangerous because fundamentalists use it to make many many Muslims bad, hate different people and kill because Allah say to because people are not Muslims? There is much hate in Muslim world because Muslims must hate people who are not Muslims.

Islam also hates girls and women. Very bad for them. very intolerant religion. You not agree?

That is not the question I try to ask.

The question is that you think America and fundamentalist Islam are equally bad.

do you deny? If yes, which is worse? America or fundamentalist Islam. You think America equal to fundamentalist islam? Why or why not.

America bad because very selected few criminal soldiers do bad? Not logical. America good, tolerant. Just few bad soldiers who get punished hard. Islam has thousands of very bad people who do very bad because Islam says they must and they obey. And when Muslims do bad, they get praised and celebrated as heroes by other Muslims who think they right to do bad. America say Americans must tolerate, and Americans mostly do. Americans very very tolerant people. you not think so?

You think America is same as Islam? You think womens equality in America is no better than womens being treated like animals in IslaM?

you are very strict on this web site.

I guess when you don’t like what someone says, you get grumpy. I was told it was fun on this web site. ok to use bad words. sounded fun to me. I see it is not.

You are what they call ‘tight ass’.

Off topic ok. What will you do if I stay off topic? remove my comment?

i think I will go where people are tolerant of different views.

Too bad you are afraid of truth. When you do not like the truth, you say ‘off topic’. I see you afraid. Do not be afraid. truth is good for every one.

Embrace the truth as it sets free.

Ok. I see.

But I say: you are cleverly polite in evading discussion you do not like. Very, very good. you must have much experience doing this.

Next time you will not be able to say ‘off topic’. I be more careful then.

And you will have to answer questions then.

Authoritarian Islam is similar in tactic to certain values of authoritarian American ideology. Authoritarian tactics usually end up in similar places, because there will always be dissent, and if you can’t convince it, whatyagonna do?

“We’re better than them” is a tried and true Tier One dehumanizing tactic. Barbarians, vermin, pigs, dogs, pussies, bitches, rapists, murderers, cannibals: regardless of what background you’re from, someone, somewhere, has said that of your particular race and/or ideology and/or religion and/or culture. If it’s not true of you that you’re less than human, chances are it’s not true of “them”.

You are disgusting.

Show some respect for 250-500 innocent souls murdered in cold blood by “insurgents”.

Please spare me your cheap political points and comparisons with a few criminals in the US army.

Oh, IrC. Way simpler than you’re making it. “Us” includes all those people who don’t put ideology before a human suffering. That’s “a” human, singular. “Us” includes people all over the planet, in every faith and ideology and government. I know lots of Islamic people who would never, ever, ever blow anyone up for Allah or anything else. They are the folks all over the planet who will help an enemy wounded, who will not kick a person while he is down, who will help where they can. Those people are part of my tribe, and they are everywhere.

It’s behaviour that’s problematic, not a particular group of people located in a conveniently bombable cluster. Every ideology has its authoritarians. Every religion. Every family. Evil is load balanced, it seems.

“Them” is all of “us” who’ve gotten lost, that the Shiny Idea and/or the Intense Rage is more important than the human getting his or her legs blown off. But they’re “us” too, and we’re them.

Very easy to catagorize.

For those of us who fall in the non-authoritarian camp, the legs blown off part is the deal breaker. Anyone willing to do the legs blown off thing are making the same mistake from whence all mistakes come: thinking of people in a utilitarian way.

The thing is, Islamic fundamentalists might want to kill me and my homo-supporting, women’s right’s loving, non-Allah-worshiping ways. You betcha!

Islamic fundamentalists are neither claiming me to be part of their “us”, nor using my tax dollars. The absolute worst they can do is kill me with a car bomb.

I’m a lot more afraid of someone using me as the excuse to blow someone else up than someone blowing me up. Rather be murdered than murderer. (Most rather be neither.)

See? Easy. Not how you value things, obviously. However, from my perspective, you’re taking that first step into dehumanzing, from whence all other evil humans do to one another springs.

It’s always interesting to note how many of our guests find it impossible to tolerate discussion of rape and murder by American forces, isn’t it?

See, Stageleft isn’t making it up. It happened.

It’s not because American troops are any more prone to violence than troops from other countries. Quite the opposite: they’re among the best trained and best disciplined in the world. But atrocities inevitably happen in war. The decision to invade Iraq ensured that atrocities would occur…because they do. Women are raped, children are blown apart, men are shot by pissed off marines. That’s part of what you know will happen when you invade and occupy another country.

There are number of ways to deal with that, if you’re a fan of the war. Deny that it’s happening - rationalize it away with sophomoric logic games - lead the conversation away from the uncomfortable topic - point out that the other guys do it too - or climb up on a soap box and have a tantrum.

Thanks, friends, for the excellent illustration of evasion strategies you’ve so ably provided. And thanks for confirming SL’s point…that fans of the war are indifferent to the acts being committed in their name.

And Cathy…wander as far off topic as you want. Each digression just provides us with an opportunity to reiterate the main point. No problem.

SL/B.

We do NOT know for sure that there was any massacre in Haditha.

You want to believe it is true. But it is only alleged. Where is proof? Allegation is not proof.

You probably believe in the massacre of Qana, which is proven false.

If it is proven for sure, I will certainly condemn individuals who are guilty. But you jump to conclusioins.

I see in post you condemn official for condemning terrorists. Ok.

But will you please show me any posts you did in this web site which have you condemning the Muslim terrorists and leaders who call American army monsters or call America bad? Say that they are hypocrite. Show my your outrage and disgust of the Muslim world. Show me that you are disgusted with all Muslim leaders and Muslims who commit, order to commit, and believe in and suport the Muslim atrocities all over world.

Prove that you do not only condemn America/American army/American officials who condemn Muslim terrorists. Prove that you also condemn Muslim world for what thousands and thousands of its Muslim people do thats inhuman in name of Islam and Allah.

Do you want Muslims to stop hating, hurting, murdering? Yes, you wish American army would not have war to stop them, but do you want Muslim world to stop hating and murdering peoples who are different from them?

Prove you do not discriminate against non Muslim peoples. I think you hate America and love Islamic fundamentalists. I think you hate ‘infidles” because Muslims say they are evil.

Prove, please.

I am not off topic. Not at all. I only address your post and its message and point. Do not say I off topic, please.

Yes, I say that all needless murder and rape is horrible. But please swear that you do not think America is ‘not better’ than Islamic world, which is very dangerous and you must understand this. you must understand that America only want to try to make sure good stays stronger than evil and that peopole like HItler, Stalin, Mao, Ahmadinajad, Nasralah, etc., must be opposed by force to stop them from taking over world and spreading evilness. Yes, this is off topic, but where is your sense of humanity? You are not evil, yes? please take this as opportunity to say for sure you hate all evil. that you want to prevent evil from winning, that America always stops evildoers just as America is prosecuting its own soldiers who are accused of illegal murder and rape.

What will it hurt you to do this?

Cathy Chong:I think S. L. and B.need have much more open mind to what I, IrC, and Shlemazl say.

My mind is quite open, it’s one of the reasons that I don’t employ comment moderation or censor comments. What we have is a difference of opinion, you, lrC, and shlemazl, see the death, crippling and maiming, of innocent Iraqis by the American occupation forces in a different light than you see the death crippling and maiming of innocent Iraqis by insurgents - I see both as the death crippling and maiming of innocent Iraqis.

You, lrC, and shlemazl, appear quite willing to accept the horrors perpetrated on innocent Iraqi people by the US occupation, but view the horrors perpetrated on innocent Iraqi people by the insurgents as, well, horrors.

Cathy Chong:I think B. and S.L. afraid to understand truth.

No, you are unwilling to acknowledge the magnitude of the death, harm, and destruction, the occupation forces, by their willful and calculated actions, are causing to the people of Iraq. That death, harm, and destruction is every bit as much a truth as the death, harm, and destruction caused by the insurgency by their willful and calculated actions.

Are you still unwilling to address either of the questions I asked you earlier Cathy?

shlemazl:Of course we shoud discuss criminal acts by rouge elements within the American forces.

However it has absolutely nothing to do with the mass murder in Iraq targeted at civilians and resulting from the “insurgents” strategy.

What do you call employing chemical weapons, napalm like weapons, and cluster bombs, in residential areas? Are the innocent people who were killed by those methods any less dead than the people killed by the truck bombs that started this discussion? Is becoming dead because of high tech methods employed by a [supposedly] civilized government somehow less dead than being killed by a truck bomb?

What about the American air strike strategy that has resulted in the death, crippling, or maiming of thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands, innocent Iraqi civilians since the beginning of this war?

Very good at denying, you guys,

SL, you say “What do you call employing chemical weapons, napalm like weapons, and cluster bombs, in residential areas? Are the innocent people who were killed by those methods any less dead than the people killed by the truck bombs that started this discussion? Is becoming dead because of high tech methods employed by a [supposedly] civilized government somehow less dead than being killed by a truck bomb?”

I say: You do not understand at all.

Again, moral equivalence. I think you incapable of understanding differences between the ‘whys’ of each side in doing the things they do. You seem to think all violence by all sides is always equally un-ethical and im-moral. You are wrong. But in free world, ok to not agree.

I bet you would have equated the Allies response to Hitler, Hirohito and Musolini to the actions of those three monsters.

I bet you think the response to 9/11 is equal to 9/11 itself. I’m sure you have “reasons” for it.

I bet you think bombing Iran will be worse than Ahmadinajad promising to kill all Jews, destroy Israel, destroy America, kill all “Anglo-Saxons” everywhere while brazenly building nuclear bombs and missiles.

You, SL and B, worry me and scare me. I hope there are not to many like you.

I hope I am wrong about you and that you do not think that violence to stop violence is same as violence in name of Islam, Nazism, Communism. I hope you not thinking that Allies equally bad and evil as Axis, that Bush equally bad and evil as Saddam, Taliban, Iranian government. I sincerely hope you are not of opinion that it’s all same, that you have reverse concept between good and evil and mix them up.

Cathy, in order to be taken seriously, you have to at least pretend to engage in discussion. Simply reiterating the same old cliches again and again doesn’t really do much except get boring.

So…what measures do you think could minimize the risk of American troops going “rogue” for the remainder of the occuption?