Yep, North Korea is definitely a force for good compared to Israel and the US.

I can’t be even bothered to raise my finger. Hey, there are lots of bigots around; what’s new?

Ah - the “People hate us for our freedoms” variant - I hadn’t seen that coming Shlemazl.

Has it ever occurred to you, Shlemazl, that many people in the world believe that Israelis, Iranians, Americans, and North Koreans are the bigots?

Shlomo chill out man.

“At least we don’t do X,Y, and Z” is not a defense - it’s not even a good attempt.

Be grateful? Russian? The only reason I would have ever had to learn Russian would be because the Cold War was a product of two different ideologies led by very similar elites.

“Do it our way, because our way is the right way” was what both countries leaders were thinking and implementing. It’s thinking like that that has the U.S. is a stupid situation right now, and it’s what drives people in the world to see it as a negative influence.

What’s next Shlem? Can you blame it all on anti-americanism? Anto-Zionism? How much longer can you rationalize and justify violence, oppression, corruption, and illegitimacy before you realize that countries are despised for what they do, not what their religions, ethnicities, or ideologies are?

Good job - try to equate fact (round earth) with subjective opinions (benevolent Israel).

Actually, if you look at the poll, Iran and Israel are tied - probably because both are viewed as potentially violent and stubborn countries who are caught in a game of American adventurism.

Anti-Americanism and Anti-Semitism is the easiest way for you to dismiss the views of so many people. Of course, it never crossed your mind that maybe war, death, and suffering (and the threat thereof) caused by all of the nations in that annotated list has anything to do with their global standings - a little too uncomfortable for you to acknowledge.

I can understand you grew up on the other side of the Iron Curtain, but that don’t mean you can preach to me about the cold war. Idiots are idiots, whether they are Capitalistic or Communistic - especially when they are threatening to blow each other up in thermonuclear explosions.

Different ideology, same way of thinking if you ask me.

America has been a force for good for as long as I can remember.

America was once a force for good, that’s been replaced now with “America is a force for what it believes to be good for itself”.

Just be grateful: Russian would have been a hard language for you to learn.

To buy into that you have to buy into the idea that the cold war was something other than a manufactured set of circumstances that benefited western economies… I recall once [years ago] asking if anyone had any solid proof that the Russian hordes were bent on coming over the pole and subjecting western society - never got it.

…… anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism/semitism seem to be the most plausible explanations for the results that are quite so outrageous.

A convenient world view that means you don’t have to look at any factors that just might support the negative opinions the world holds.

I am the first to admit that there is a lot of fabricated propaganda out there designed to make America and Israel look bad, there is also truth in the criticisms. Whether or not either chooses to address those truths and make an effort to do more than dismiss the negative because they believe their positive behaviours negate them is the larger question.

To me it is a fact that Israel is not the agressor.

Israel absolutely is the aggressor, their leadership has recognized this since the days of Ben Gurion. To say otherwise is to deny the events of the rise of the Zionist movement and 60 years of very recent history - arguments do not gain support if they depend on rewriting history that a living people remember.

America is also an aggressor, they and their supporters may choose not to view themselves in that light but when you violently project your will on others you are an aggressor.

No amount of “PR” will ever change this.

That’s a pretty defeatist attitude don’t you think?

In the case of both America and Israel fabricated negative propaganda can always be countered with the truth, and legitimate criticism can always be countered by change - it depends on whether or not there is the will to do more than simply shout from the hill tops ‘oh woe is us, we are so misunderstood’.

Wow! Those are some impressive conspiracy theories and statements flying in the face of all the facts resulting in totally unsupported dogmas.

Really? I notice you neglected to provide any evidence that the Russian hordes were set to load up their sleds and come over the pole….. maybe someday……

Guess the fact that Israel was attacked by ~7 Arab countries on the day it was established,…….

You are, of course, aware of how Israel was created aren’t you shlemazl - from land taken from Arabs, against their will. Land given to others to prevent terrorist attacks [to use todays jargon] like those launched by the Irgun and their ilk.

Just what would you expect the outcome to be if a bunch of world powers got together and decided that Ontario would be a really good place to set up a Palestinian homeland with an added screw you if ya don’t like it shlemazl, Toronto is now the capital of the new state — are you, and everyone you know just gonna shrug and roll over? Is the rest of Canada just gonna shrug and roll over? Will the US border states just shrug and roll over?

I am slightly stunned by your reference to Ben Gurion believing Israel to be an agressor as this kind of information could only have originated from Neo-Nazi or Hamas sources.

Or it could have come from a world where people aren’t blind to history.

Ben Gurion: “We must expel Arabs and take their places.”

Ben Gurion: “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.

Ben Gurion answering Yigal Allon’s question on what to do with the Palestinians, ‘Drive them out!”

You do yourself no favours denying historical fact shlemazl, none what so ever, do a bit of research before you equate the words and thoughts of people like Gurion, Meir, or Begin, to neo-nazi philosophy…. that sort of thing could get ya labeled anti-Semite or something.

You kind of sound sensible sometimes….

Thanks, you seem sensible most of the time as well, except when you start trying to rewrite history to fit your version of reality, something that causes me to doubt (now and again) whether you are as sensible as you seem.

As far as the Cold War comment is concerned, you obviously don’t consider USSR splitting countries in a treaty with Nazi Germany as a proof.

When I was 12 I was taught to operate machine guns at school so that we can help poor workers up west to overthrow capitalism.

None of that would be a proof for you. You did not get the kind of solid proof you are looking for thanks to the USA.

First attacks took place in 1920. They were organized by the Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat’s uncle (later Hitler’s assistant and war criminal during WW2). It was claimed that Jews were out to destroy Al-Aqsa Mosque (which still stands and serves the same purpose today). Ancient Jewish communities in Hebron and other places were wiped out by murdering unprotected Jews. It was after that that Jews started to organize to defend themselves.

You can argue that Arabs had justifiable concerns, but you cannot argue that Jews were the aggressors.

That’s all history and frankly … who cares? Either way, Native Americans would have a much stronger “historic case” against “Europeans” in Canada. Historical claims and counterclaims would have us all fighting forever.

However I assure you that if whoever for whatever reason suicide bombed schoolbuses and pizzerias in Ontario and elected these terrorists to rule themselves, I would support whatever it takes to defend me and my family.

Nope, I just don’t view history through the filters you have chosen to employ shlemazl.

There has never been a state called Palestine or an Arab state in what is today called Israel.

There was however a territory with defined borders controlled by others that was called Palestine, check it out, Mr. Google is full of maps. The Brits took it over when the Ottoman empire went to pieces and decided to do something different with it instead of allow it statehood as happened with the rest of the territories in the region.

As I’m sure you are aware the League of Nations made decisions about what was going to happen there, one of which was that the territory would be split and the state of Israel be created from land already occupied by Arab people who have been resisting ever since.

Don’t take any of this to mean that I do not believe that Israel does not have the right to exist, do take it to mean that, IMO, neither the international community nor the state of Israel have managed this properly since day one — do you really think that just because the UN decided something that people would just shrug and agree?

Yeah, I see how you elegantly refuted all my points by hiding back into your shell.

Jeeze dude, do you really think that my life revolves around this blog and being Johnny on the spot for every comment or question? I’ve been known to get caught up in real life and reply to something for days and days and days.

I have no doubt that Ben Gurion has been misquoted (I notice you didn’t say the quote I used was incorrect), I have no doubt that the USSR did really bad shit, and I operate under no illusions (or delusion’s) that either the Arab world or the Palestinians hold a lock on the truth or have pure intentions.

– none of that means that Ben Gurion (or other Israeli leaders past or present) had (or have) a lock on the truth or pure intentions (indeed some of the stuff some of them have said is 100% bigoted - Meir, for example, was loaded with hate), or that the USSR actually had any plans to load up their sleds and come over the pole.

You appear to operate under the premise that Israel has done no wrong in this respect, or at the very least you do not seem to want to acknowledge bad shit that has, and continues, to happen.

If you check through the archives here you will see multiple times where I have said that neither side in this conflict can be trusted to act responsibly, you will also see where I have said that the only way the stupidity will end is if an armed international force is plunked down between the two sides with orders to shoot anyone from either side, who tries to violate the line in any way.

Oops, silly me. Quotations didn’t work out. It should have been like this:

1. “you really think that my life revolves around this blog…”
“You don’t have to respond…”

2. “There was however a territory with defined borders controlled by others…”
“Others = Ottomans…”

3. “I have no doubt that Ben Gurion has been misquoted”
” And you are claiming…”

4. “You appear to operate under the premise that Israel has done no wrong…”
“Israel has made lots of mistakes”

5. “an armed international force is plunked down between the two sides”
“Never…”

1. All I am saying is that your comment #18 was much worse than no answer.

2. What about defined borders? National Palestinian movement did not exist at the time of the Ottoman empire. In fact there was no movement for independence from Jordan and Egypt when Gaza and West Bank were controlled by them prior to 6-day war.

There was pan-Arab independence movement starting in the second half of 19th century and after WWI lots of Arab states were established, including Transjordan in Palestine.

3. Your “Ben Gurion” quotes 1 and 2 are fabrications. Quote 3 is out of context. There was a civil war; in many cases civilians and combatants were indistinguishable. Actions varied depending on individuals, times and locations. Jews were literally fighting the war for survival and in many cases had no choice. In many cases when they won, they begged Arabs to stay, like in the case of Haifa, but local Arabs were forced to leave by their leaders from abroad. In some cases Arabs were expelled. That was by far the minority of those that left; most just ran away from terrible life during the civil war. Unlike Jews they had somewhere to run and were not as well organized to survive “in situ”. All in all around 800 thousand left Israel and 200 thousand stayed. Compare this to approximately 800 thousand Jews, the vast majority of whom were forced to leave Arab countries so that most Arab countries of today are Juden frei.

Whatever the historic problems on either side, it does not mean that there is a reason to reject any settlement of the conflict for eternity.

I am still looking for some justification of your otrageous reference to Golda.

5. My point was that even theoretically such a force would only be effective against one side - Israel. It would make life MUCH easier for Palestinian terrorists.

“Rule” No 1 for any decent government is to defend her people. Israel has been very successful in doing just this against the backdrop of genocidal attempts of the Palestinian leadership. “Successful” suicide bombings have been almost stopped when compared agaisnst the peak of second Intifada.