Which has nothing to do with the fact that Moore, Kerry, Kennedy, etc never said that Iraqis should never have been given the chance to vote in a free election… as I said that’s typical right-wing disinformation and demonization.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that Moore, Kerry, Kennedy, etc never said that Iraqis should never have been given the chance to vote in a free election… as I said that’s typical right-wing disinformation and demonization.

That’s like being a cop saying “I think criminals should go to jail” and then not arresting people who break the law.

“That’s like being a cop saying “I think criminals should go to jail” and then not arresting people who break the law.”

Sorry, V…our posts crossed.

And…who was it that appointed the cop?

So those who do not explicitly declare the AWESOMENESS of elections in Iraq are haters of freedom, democracy, civilization, and general human decency. This recalls the recent thinking that anyone who does not explicitly declare support for everything the President says is an enemy of America in its time of war, hater of freedom, terrorist sympathizer, etc.

These kind of accusations ruin discourse and polarize people into “with us or against us” bullshit. Its a disgusting tactic.

If Kennedy, Moore, and their ilk did support free elections, don’t you think they should have been advocating as much as they could to get those elections done?

Saying that is the equilivent of saying that I don’t support free elections in Iraq - but I do, so it’s wrong.

What us ilk are hoping to accomplish has nothing to do with opposing or supressing free, fair, and democratic elections in Iraq, trying to make that connection looks more like an attempt to cloud the issue than anything else.

“The invasion is over. It happened and cannot be taken back, as you two have pointed out on numerous occasions.”

That’s correct. But part of our job…and yours…is to ensure that the lessons are not lost, and that the same mistakes are being made again.

The triumphalism roaring through conservative blogdom today reminds one that a lot of lessons are in danger of being forgotten. In the days after the fall of Baghdad, it was really easy to forget that Hans Blix had been right, that America was woefully underprepared for (and essentially uninterested in) nation building, and that creating a functioning society would be infinitely harder than clobbering an under-equipped, impoverished army.

So…we’re trying to remind folks of that.

As for whether the folks who you feel should be demonstrating…whatever…are or aren’t demonstrating…whatever…well, that’s not a very interesting question. Maybe…like those of us who opposed the invasion and watched the fall of Bagdhad…they have a sense of what might be coming up.

Okay, so putting aside your terror about what might be coming up after the elections, when does the rebuilding start in your mind?

When does your “support” for the election turn into actual support of the people who voted and the government they elected?

How long before your “support” for the Iraqi people and the “idea” of free elections becomes real support for the government and the people, instead of just another chance to move the goalposts?

How many “what’s coming up” arguments will we hear before we say, regardless of “what’s coming up” it’s time to support the people who brought about this historic change?

Or is this just another example of not giving credit to anything having to do with George W. Bush? And the elections, the people, and the government will just keep on having your “support” but never actually have your support?

“Okay, so putting aside your terror about what might be coming up after the elections…”

Is your presumably sarcastic use of the word “terror” here intended to suggest that concerns about the development of democracy are misplaced? Why?

“When does the rebuilding start in your mind?” It’s already started. The provisional council and American authorities started it as soon as Bagdhad fell. Some of it has been going very well: some of it has not.

“When does your “support” for the election turn into actual support of the people who voted and the government they elected?”

I’m not sure what the question means. I didn’t “support” this election. I felt it happened too soon, with too little preparation. I’m glad it happened without bloodshed, and I hope it marks the first step in the development of a real democracy. For reasons I’ve detailed elsewhere, at long and boring length, I have concerns that may not happen. Given the track record of the US in actually developing effective instruments for fostering community development, education and political participation in Iraq, I am not overly optimistic: given the courage that Iraqis showed in coming out to vote, there may be reason for hope.

“How long before your “support” for the Iraqi people and the “idea” of free elections becomes real support for the government and the people, instead of just another chance to move the goalposts?”

I’m trying to pick the real question out of the soap here, and it seems to be…do I support the elected Iraqi government? Ummm…well, to the extent that a Canadian citizen can “support” a foreign government, I suppose I support it as of now. It is more valid instrument of governance than the provisional authority.

Will I continue to have concerns about the possible impact of under-representation of specific populations and communities? Yes. Will I feel that diminishes the government’s legitimacy? Somewhat, but it’s still closer to home rule than the current occupation.

How many “what’s coming up” arguments will we hear before we say, regardless of “what’s coming up” it’s time to support the people who brought about this historic change?

Well, on the conservative sites, not very many, I guess, since asking questions seems to be evidence of disloyalty, reflexive anti Americanism, or whatever.

Are you asking when will I relax, satisfied that “democracy” has been installed? Probably in about ten years, if a constitution guaranteeing minority rights is passed, and if a couple more elections are held that achieve something resembling representative levels of representation.

“Or is this just another example of not giving credit to anything having to do with George W. Bush?”

I add this election to the positive side of the ledger. On the other side of the ledger are the Iraqi and coalition dead, the shredding of the principle of multilateralism, the collapse of your President’s credibility, the (in my opinion) horrible doctrine of unilateral pre-emptive warfare, the alienation of allies, and the contemptible looting of Iraqi state owned assets by coalition corporations. So while I’m glad about the election, forgive me if I’m disinclined to move to Brooklyn and join the Republican Party just yet.

“And the elections, the people, and the government will just keep on having your “support” but never actually have your support? ”

As Manuel on Fawlty Towers was fond of saying…”Que?”

“And with that I tune this thread out.”

That’s a pity. I had pretty much the same reaction when I read “…is this just another example of not giving credit to anything having to do with George W. Bush?”, but you raised enough interesting questions to be worth discussing.

I’m sorry you didn’t find anything in the response worth your attention.